Friday, February 25, 2022

DEMOCRACY NOW!
A City Under Siege: Ukrainian Journalist in Kyiv Speaks Out as Russian Troops Move In on Capital

STORY FEBRUARY 25, 2022

GUESTS
Nataliya Gumenyuk
Ukrainian journalist based in Kyiv and founder of the Public Interest Journalism Lab.

LINKS
Nataliya Gumenyuk on Twitter
"I'm in Kyiv and awake at the darkest hour – as Putin's bombs rain down"
Public Interest Journalism Lab

As the Russian army advances on Kyiv and threatens to topple the Ukrainian government, Ukrainian officials have banned men ages 18 to 60 from leaving the country to potentially be drafted into defense forces and have directed residents to use Molotov cocktails against the approaching Russian troops. We get an update from Ukrainian journalist Nataliya Gumenyuk in Kyiv, who says Ukrainians are showing great resilience against a much greater force invading their country. “The Ukrainian army is really deterring this mighty force on its own,” she says.



Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.

AMY GOODMAN: Russian troops have entered the northern district of the Ukrainian capital of Kyiv in what is seen as part of a move to encircle the city and topple the Ukrainian government. At least one apartment building in Kyiv was set ablaze today after being hit by a rocket. This comes a day after Russia launched a sweeping attack on Ukraine by land, air and sea. The Ukrainian government is now urging citizens to make Molotov cocktails to help defend the country. Ukrainian forces have also blown up a key bridge north of the city in an attempt to slow the Russian advance.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said he’s remaining in the capital despite threats to his life. On Thursday, he vowed to defend Ukraine, while saying he’s open to talks with Russia and discussing the issue of neutrality.


PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKY: [translated] Today I have asked 27 European leaders whether Ukraine will be in NATO. I have asked directly. Everyone is afraid. No one answers. But we are not afraid. We are not afraid of anything. We are not afraid to defend our country. We are not afraid of Russia. We are not afraid to talk to Russia. We are not afraid to talk about anything, about security guarantees for our country. We are not afraid of talking about neutrality. We are not NATO members at the moment, but what guarantees will we get? And most importantly, which countries will give us those guarantees? …


I remain in the capital. My family is also in Ukraine. My children are in Ukraine. My family are not traitors. They are citizens of Ukraine. Where exactly they are, I have no right to say. According to the information we have, the enemy has marked me as target number one, my family as target number two. They want to damage Ukraine politically by destroying the head of state.

AMY GOODMAN: The Ukrainian president also said 137 Ukrainian civilians and military personnel were killed in the opening day of the Russian invasion. Ukraine claims it’s killed as many as 800 Russian soldiers, but there has been no verification of the claim. Russia is claiming it’s destroyed over 115 military facilities in Ukraine. Meanwhile, the United Nations says over 100,000 Ukrainians have been displaced, with thousands fleeing to other European countries. In Washington, President Biden condemned Russia’s invasion.


PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN: Putin is the aggressor. Putin chose this war. And now he and his country will bear the consequences.

AMY GOODMAN: During a speech at the White House, Biden announced new sanctions against Russia but stopped short of directly sanctioning Putin or kicking Russia out of the global SWIFT banking system. On Thursday, the Pentagon ordered 7,000 more troops to Germany. NATO is holding emergency talks today about the crisis. In Moscow, Putin told a group of Russian business leaders he had no choice but to attack Ukraine in order to ensure Russia’s security.

This comes as antiwar protesters are rallying around the globe, calling for Russia to halt its invasion. In Russia, authorities arrested 1,800 people calling for peace on Thursday. Most of the arrests occurred in Moscow and St. Petersburg.

We begin the show in the Ukrainian capital Kyiv, where we’re joined by the Ukrainian journalist Nataliya Gumenyuk. She just wrote a harrowing piece for The Guardian headlined “I’m in Kyiv and awake at the darkest hour — as Putin’s bombs rain down.” She’s the founder of the Public Interest Journalist Lab. Her work focuses on international security and conflict reporting and human rights. She’s spent a lot of time covering Donbas.

Nataliya, welcome to Democracy Now! Can you describe the situation where you are right now, what the people of Kyiv and Ukraine are facing?

NATALIYA GUMENYUK: So, good to talk to you.

I am in Kyiv, in the capital. I am so far working from my home. I am trying to understand where I’m able to go. A lot of people, they were called to stay in the basement. The Ukrainian underground is quite deep, so people — quite a lot of people spend their nights there. There was a call from the government to stay at home, not to really get out, though hospitals are working. Transportation is free.

And I should probably stress then that, you know, like, what is possible to do to make the civilians’ kind of life normal, we’re fortunate to have cellphones, internet so far, electricity and water. But, of course, it’s developing very fast. There was a saboteur groups in one of the residential areas. We know that the Russian military were killed, that it was stopped. We, of course, follow, you know, videos, photos. I, of course, obviously, as a journalist myself, have a lot of colleagues, have a lot of sources online. A lot could be done. And things are happening all across the country, but it’s clear that there is an attempt to overtake Kyiv. But I’d like to stress then, for more than like 32 hours, the Ukrainian army is really deterring this mighty force on its own.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk, Nataliya, about an interview you did — you wrote about this — with a Russian journalist when she called you?

NATALIYA GUMENYUK: Yeah, I have — I’m in touch with a lot of Russian journalists, independent journalists. They are often in a position they’re forbidden to work in their country. So, as there were the first signs of the war, there was a shelling in the capital, as well, and it was clear yesterday night that it started, it’s a full-scale, it’s something unthinkable.

I got the call — I don’t know the person; I know by name, she’s very famous — to ask, like, “What is happening? Like, is it true?” But she started to beg for forgiveness. She started to talk that she begs for forgiveness to what her country does for her, and she feels powerless, as a lot of Russians do, as a lot of Russian liberals. So, I was, like, telling what’s going on. And she asked to compare. You know, like, she asked to compare. And I said, like, “You know, it would be stupid. I mean, I don’t like this comparison.” I think we too often misuse the term of the Second World War, Hitler, you know, in the public speeches, everywhere, as an anecdote. But because she’s Russian, and I’m kind of from — we are both from the post-Soviet space. We grew up in this stories about Second World War. The Hitler attacks started at 4 a.m. in 1941 with bombing here. And it was 5 a.m., and Putin bombed Kyiv. And that’s a reference that all people in post-Soviet space feel very strong. And it’s happening. And it can be, you know, different. And that’s how Ukrainians felt.

And it was very important to — you know, I’m not that emotional person. I’m trying to keep calm. But I think we kind of cried a bit, because of the — you know, like, this tragedy of the moment, because I don’t want it, she don’t want it, our citizens don’t want it, a huge portion of the Russians don’t want it. There is not any other reason rather than madness, rather than hatred of Vladimir Putin to Ukraine, which within the last couple of months, and within the last years, actually, demonstrated 'til the very, very last moment that it's ready to avoid the war, that it’s really — you know, it’s all about the defense. And now we’re living in a very different reality.

AMY GOODMAN: Do you have a sense Kyiv will fall, as early as today or in the next few days?

NATALIYA GUMENYUK: No, my sense is very different, of course. I might be wishful thinking. Actually, now, like, reading to what my colleagues saying, they are in fact very disappointed by the Western kind of tone that it’s a matter of hours. We see that — you know, I cannot independently verify how — you know, like, whether the Ukrainian army, to what extent it was successful, how many there are casualties among the Russian troops. You know, like, the country is big. It’s as big as France. So, none of the media would be capable to verify it. But the resilience which has been shown already by the legit Ukrainian army is really big, because, like, the predictions were — I felt like sometimes it was said, like, “Oh, it’s a matter of hours.” It’s not a matter of hours. I think that Ukraine is way stronger than many people think. But — but, of course, it feels like we are long, and the strength is formidable. So, that’s really different.

And to add, you know, I, by my views — you know, I covered conflict, and I do report them from the humanitarian side. You know, there are journalists who cover war from the military point of view. I’m always with the civilians. I’m always kind of and very much for pro-peace. But at this moment, you just know that in such circumstances, it’s just the legit army in the democratic country where — in a pluralistic society which is trying to hold on. And even though there would be very severe damage — we know, like, the longer it lasts, it also means there would be more damage done to Ukraine, to Ukrainian cities. There would be innocent victims and casualties. But the deterrence is very strong. I feel like very warm. I feel very supported by everybody. I feel like everybody does his or her best. And in particularly, I’m like at core of the civil society. You know, like, my friends and my circle is like super active people, so there were never doubts about what they would do. But I’m looking at like every civilian — like, not every; I don’t want to overdo. But to many, those who we would consider apolitical, those who we would consider that they would just prefer to live their normal life, those who can, they stay in the town. They send their kids and parents. You know, they send their — but they stand here to do something.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about what it is that — how your family is preparing right now, your husband also a journalist? We’re hearing about hundreds of people going into the subways as underground bomb shelters, not knowing what else to do, thousands going over the border — what? — into places like Poland, 100,000 displaced in Ukraine right now, and those numbers, of course, could mount. So, how you both are doing your journalism and also preparing your own family?

NATALIYA GUMENYUK: So, yeah, Ukraine is 40 million. It has a border with Poland. We’re having requests. We’re receiving, like, offers from a lot of people in the western part of the country to host. People have relatives. People are really moving from the areas of like bigger danger. My sister managed to get out of the town, but not far away. I’m trying — I’m kind of exactly considering how it would be possible to kind of bring my mom today to the train. We are like in New York: It’s a megapolis; we don’t all, everybody, own cars. So I don’t drive. I should find a way with the public transportation to do that, because Uber isn’t really working.

With my husband, to be honest, like, probably, that’s a moment when I really do not care what is professional, what is personal. He is a bit, like, too brave. You know, like, he’s a bit careless person. So I’m really worried he went, like, somewhere where it’s really dangerous now. And I kind of — I don’t share. I think he should be, like, a bit more concerned. But I know him. It won’t happen, but so makes me a bit angry. But because I kind of more care — I’m more careful while working outside.

Yeah, I’m trying to understand, like: Should I be here with you, talking but being in my room, or should I go out? Where should I go? It’s all everywhere. Would it have any impact if I go there, if I would tweet, if I would make a broadcast to any foreign station? It would matter, but which moment? For how long we should be in this situation? You know, like, I’ve forgotten to eat for two days now. I understood, like, I have to. I don’t really want. But, like, should I sleep? Should we do it in the shifts? Should I move the table to a different corner of the room, so further from the windows, because, who knows, maybe there would be shelling? At what moment I could leave the house? To what distance? Because we are journalists. And, again, I probably received this question, but I report this conflict. You know, like, that’s my profile. That’s something I have to do. You know, like, these are like — we are like on duty. It’s not our task to leave. We should be the ones who would stay as long as possible.

But I want to convey this message of confidence. Really, like, these talks about like how much will — how many hours it will take. I receive the support from friends, people whom I know, you know, like from even like weird places, like from Mali to Tuvalu. People send support, and I appreciate it. But I think that the trust in the Ukrainian society should be also there — not just support, but the trust that we are really doing something special. And it’s not just for Ukraine. It’s really about the rules of this world.

AMY GOODMAN: Now, Nataliya, the president, who says he is marked as target number one, his family target number two, now says that men can’t leave between the ages of 18 and 60. They can’t leave Ukraine. They’re calling on all people to prepare with Molotov cocktails to face off the Russian army. I’m wondering if you could comment on this? And also, how this compares to — you talk about your husband being brave, but you, too. You’ve been covering Donbas, the eastern region, for a long time. Can you talk about how this compares to that conflict area?

NATALIYA GUMENYUK: OK. So, I don’t really would stress on the Molotov cocktails. There was also the calls for the people to conscript to fight in the territorial defense. And that was just like additional, on top of that. I can’t verify it myself, but I, like, see the photos, and in towns there are lines to the — you know, where males are — and not just men, but women also, are trying to join the army. But, yeah, probably people should be ready for the guerrilla war. So far, it’s always legit.

It’s very different from the conflict in the Donbas. You know, at that time, Russia still pretended to not be there. It was there, but they pretended that, you know, like those separatists they backed, they didn’t have the — you know, they didn’t have, for instance, air force or navy, because those separatists — as if they bought their guns or, like, that Buk missiles rocket which shot the MH17 jet, that they bought it somewhere in the free market. So, there was a limited. It was dangerous, it was bad, but it was limited somehow. It was mainly artillery. Now it’s a full-scale invasion. Russia knows the military targets in Ukraine, thanks to the old Soviet maps. So, like, every single military unit and military — you know, which doesn’t make sense — like, warehouse was attacked. And the border is very long. Also, Belarus joined Russia in this. The Belarus and other neighbor country, with the regime of Lukashenko, is kind of used — it’s used as a theater, as the place.

So, it really could be compared just like of the biggest war since the Second World War with the mighty force which is there. Again, Ukraine is as large as France. And it’s attacked in the huge part of its territory with not limited — you know, like, I think a lot of countries we can refer. I know quite well, you know, Afghanistan or Iraq. But it was still a limited amount of people flying to some different continent, you know, with some targets. There, we have, like, the country, like Russia, one of the biggest in the globe, with one of the mightiest armies, is trying to overtake quite a big country with a huge number of people.

What I still think, like: What are in the minds of those 150,000 Russian soldiers? The Russian war is not popular in Russia. The Russian television, official television, they don’t mention this war. It’s not exist for them. I am puzzled how it could be possible in the modern world, for how long. So, that’s really something quite historical, unfortunately.

AMY GOODMAN: Nataliya Gumenyuk, we want to thank you for being with us. Please be safe. Ukrainian journalist based in Kyiv whose harrowing piece for The Guardian is headlined “I’m in Kyiv and awake at the darkest hour — as Putin’s bombs rain down.” We’ll link to that piece at democracynow.org. She’s the founder of Public Interest Journalist Lab, her work focusing on international security, conflict reporting and human rights, speaking to us from Ukraine’s capital.

When we come back, we’ll speak with a woman who has left Ukraine, a Ukrainian peace activist who just fled, is now in Sharm el-Sheikh. Stay with us.

Ukrainian Peace Activist: My Country Has Become a Battlefield for Major Powers. End the War Now

STORYFEBRUARY 25, 2022

GUESTS
Nina Potarska
coordinator for the Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom in Ukraine.

LINKS
The Women's International League for Peace and Freedom
CodePink's International Emergency Online Rally: No War in Ukraine


As officials in Moscow threaten to replace the democratically elected Ukrainian government and Russian forces appear set to overpower Ukrainian defenses, is this the end of an independent Ukraine? We speak with Ukrainian peace activist Nina Potarska, who fled the country after Russian troops entered Ukraine on Thursday, even as her 11-year-old daughter with COVID-19 had to stay behind. She is participating in CodePink’s international emergency online rally on Saturday to advocate against war and against NATO membership for Ukraine. “I feel that my country now is like a battlefield for all other countries’ ambition,” says Potarska. “We want to be in peace.”

Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.


AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman.

As we continue to look at the Russian invasion of Ukraine, we’re also joined by a Ukrainian peace activist who just fled the country earlier this week. Nina Potarska is the coordinator for the Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom in Ukraine. She’s set to speak Saturday as part of an international emergency online rally calling for “No War in Ukraine, No to NATO,” organized by the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, CodePink and others. She is joining us from Egypt.

Nina Potarska, welcome to Democracy Now! Please explain your circumstances. So, you have left Ukraine now, and your child is still in Ukraine?

NINA POTARSKA: Yes. I was able to fly on the last charter planes to Egypt, because there was not any other options. And my daughter was ill with COVID, so it was not possible to take her with me.

AMY GOODMAN: Your daughter has COVID?

NINA POTARSKA: Yes, in the same time.

AMY GOODMAN: How old is she?

NINA POTARSKA: Because, you know — she’s 11. And now, yesterday they left Kyiv, together with her father, and they were on the road near 30 hours. And now they are together with her father walking to Poland border, maybe eight kilometers, because of a lot of cars. And they want to join another part of my family, mother and wife of my brother. So, and the men —

AMY GOODMAN: Between the ages of 18 and 60 can’t?

NINA POTARSKA: Yeah, yeah, men are not allowed to go out, and they are all under the military duty. So, now, immediately now, they try to pass the border. And they’re really nervous because if it’s possible to go by alone to here because she’s 11. And so, it’s a big drama for every family now, because some are trying to escape from Kyiv, because in Kyiv now it’s really hard. Somebody try to reach Poland and spending many hours to get close to the border. And I am really grateful for our Polish friends and colleagues who are helping us in close to the border and helping with the cars, with food, with everything we need. So —

AMY GOODMAN: Nina, I want to thank you for being with us, because I know this is an incredibly difficult time for you. You are both dealing with all of this personally, as well as doing your political work. You’re going to participate with a CodePink online rally tomorrow. And it’s a rally that says “no to war” and as well as “no to NATO.” And I’m wondering if you can talk about your response to the Russian invasion and what you think needs to happen now.

NINA POTARSKA: Yeah. You know, in this conflict, I don’t want to take any party, because it’s like — it’s unbelievable, like it’s a bad movie, because I’m with this conflict from the very beginning, from 2014. And I know how to be in the shelling, under the shelling, from one side and from another side. And, you know, the people — the fear is the same. And it does not mean that which bombs is better, NATO bombs or Russian bombs. And we know that NATO also doing a lot of very terrible things but in other — in different parts of this war. But this time it’s maybe Russia time.

And, of course, now I feel that we are, like, alone, faced with this threat, because, in the one hand, Russia attacked us, and, in the other hand, the Western partners — and you are also our Western partners — like, refuse to do anything. And today we received information that we are like — there are no agreements because of — about [inaudible] shutdown. So, it was like a joke, really. It’s just one that everybody can suggest us. I feel that my country now is like a battlefield for all countries’ ambition: NATO parts and Russia parts. And two imperialistic countries want to divide my country.

And I just want to stress one very simple idea, that this is not movie. We are real people, and we die like real people. And real children cry because of the explosions everywhere. It’s not matter in Ukraine or in Afghanistan or in Syria: We all alive people, and we want to be in peace. And I beg you, stay human and not close the borders, not close this help for civilian population. And third, stop this nightmare for all this war and start this — so, stop this threat each other, because — and cut the stakes, because it’s time to get back a little bit to diplomatic mechanism.

And I really excuse because I am so angry, maybe because I’m so far and I feel that I need just to coordinate and be together with the media, too, because all my colleagues now in stress and help other people just to survive. And all my colleagues have no opportunity to speak aloud. And if our leaders really try to be human, because it’s not time to be strong and not time to be masculine, it’s not time to be so patriarchal, because we are going to hell everywhere. And if it’s really difficult to stay in this human level, ask us to help you, because we can sit together with you and just hold your hand to remind that where is the humanity, because it’s terrible what is going on in this world. I am in touch with a lot of women from all over the world and with women who have suffered from conflict around all of this world. It’s terrible. And I believe two years ago that COVID turned our mind to new reality when we have to care about each other, when strong country need help weak countries. But, no, now it’s like a stupid drama. I’m sorry.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, Nina Potarska, I want to thank you for being with us. All the best to your daughter, 11 years old, on the border with Poland right now with her father. Men can’t leave Ukraine. The Ukrainian government has called on all men 18 to 60 to stay in the country. Nina Potarska is the coordinator for the Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom in Ukraine, set to speak Saturday as part of the international emergency online rally calling for “no war in Ukraine” and “no to NATO,” that is organized by the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, CodePink and others. She was speaking to us from Sharm el-Sheikh in Egypt.

Katrina vanden Heuvel on Putin’s “Indefensible” Invasion & Why NATO Is at the Root of Ukraine Crisis

STORYFEBRUARY 25, 2022

GUESTS
Katrina vanden Heuvel
editorial director and publisher of The Nation magazine and columnist for The Washington Post.

LINKS
Katrina vanden Heuvel on Twitter
"Putin's Invasion"


The Nation’s Katrina vanden Heuvel, who has reported on Russia for decades, says many observers were “shocked” that Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered an invasion of Ukraine, calling it an “indefensible” decision. President Biden ordered strong sanctions on Russia in response, but he has also heeded critics’ warnings not to send troops to Ukraine in order to avoid a world war. Vanden Heuvel says that it’s vital that instead of further military escalation, there be a “diplomatic escalation” to resolve the crisis and end the war.

Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.

AMY GOODMAN: As we continue to cover Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, we’re joined by Katrina vanden Heuvel, editorial director and publisher of The Nation magazine, columnist for The Washington Post.

Katrina, you’ve reported for decades on Russia. You last joined us a few days ago. On Friday, the situation in Ukraine looks very different. Lay out your response to what you call in your latest piece “Putin’s Invasion.”

KATRINA VANDEN HEUVEL: I will tell you that people who have studied Russia for decades — I think of Ambassador Jack Matlock, who was on your program — were surprised, if not shocked, even by the recognition of the independence of Donetsk and Luhansk republics, but the special military operations which occurred early morning U.S. time on, I believe, Wednesday have really shaken a community which did see, if there was any glimmer of light in all of this madness, an upsurge of diplomacy. And I think the abrupt ending to that has marked an indefensible military operation, which we’ve heard about in very human terms.

NATO is clearly at the root of the crisis. Putin, in his speech, rambling, aggrieved speech the other day, talked about NATO several times. You’ve heard it from your guests. The sadness — and war is a crime, a tragedy and a defeat — is that it wasn’t on offer, the NATO position for Ukraine, and so there’s this delusional quality.

I do think the humanitarian story has to be focused on very clearly. The questions to President Biden at his press conference yesterday, as I understand, it was all about military operations and sanctions. But the displacement of perhaps more millions of people than we discussed is going to be — upend Europe and be very grave with implications.

I want to pick up on one of your — the Ukrainian journalist, who was powerful. It is the case that it is a different moment in Russia. This is not 2014 in Crimea, when the seizure of Crimea led Putin to soar in popularity. This is a different Russia — COVID, economic problems. There’s protests across the country, Amy, as you spoke of, more than 1,500 protests in 50 cities — obviously, Moscow, St. Petersburg, more people. But also very interesting, for example, we’ve talked about Novaya Gazeta, the independent newspaper. It came out yesterday in Russian and in Ukrainian. It is part of a group called Syndicate-100, Reporters Without Borders, and issued a very tough statement. A hundred municipal political figures around the country have protested Putin’s special operations. And there are more. So this is growing. This is not going to boost Putin’s popularity. I don’t want to say “never,” because in the first few days of war, things always happen of boosting quality.

But I do think — and I’ll finish — the momentous implications for our country, for Europe, for Russia, for Ukraine — I mean, you’re looking at the risk of nuclear war; I know you’re going to talk about that — NATO, more U.S. troops on the frontlines perhaps. NATO will soar in, you know, demand for a while. Energy — we’re going to see higher oil and natural gas prices, and there will be a pressure to increase reliance on fossil fuels. What do we do about that in terms of coping with climate change needs, the crisis which we don’t pay enough attention to? And Ukraine and the economy — these sanctions may well have collateral damage in Europe and our country, and that could be — and, of course, renewed militarism. If there’s anything bipartisan at the moment in Washington, D.C., it’s this renewed militarism, adding more weapons, adding more money to the defense budget. My column ends, at TheNation.com: Let’s find a way forward. There has to be — there has to be a way to talk, even on the margins, about conventional force agreements or the international nuclear INF — not today, but let us keep that diplomatic escalation, not military escalation, in mind.

AMY GOODMAN: The Intercept’s Ken Klippenstein reported Wednesday, Saudi Arabia is working with Russia to drive up gas prices amidst the Ukraine crisis. He interviewed Bruce Riedel of the Brookings Institution and former CIA analyst, who said, quote, “Putin and [Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman] have much in common, including murdering their critics at home and abroad, intervening in their neighbors by force and trying to get oil prices as high as possible. … Putin will do MBS a great service if he invades Ukraine and sends oil prices through the roof.”

Meanwhile, The Daily Poster had a report Thursday on how “Biden’s Ukraine Plans Face Wall Street Roadblock” to sanctions aimed at Putin and his oligarchs, and that noted, quote, “inflicting financial pain on Putin and his wealthy cronies could force the Russian government to the negotiating table. But while such a move might help deter further Russian incursions, Biden faces a significant obstacle: corporate lobbyists’ success in shrouding the American finance industry in secrecy, which makes it far easier for Russian oligarchs and their business empires to evade economic sanctions.” Can you comment on this, Katrina?

KATRINA VANDEN HEUVEL: No, this is serious. This is very serious. The price of oil is over $100 a barrel. There’s no question that this is Russia’s, you know, quote, “ace in the hole.” No, I mean, I think this — the one thing I’ll say about the sanctions, the oligarchs — this is an interesting point, because Putin has tried to repatriate their money for years. This may play a role. And I think it’s critical to understand the complicity of a U.S.-European-Saudi corporate structure in enabling the oligarchs to loot, to hide money. That could not happen without — it doesn’t just, you know, happen on its own. So this is a serious issue, and there is great reporting. And Russian media, two or three major papers, have been part of it — you know, Pandora’s Box, the international consortium of investigative journalists.

I will say, however, one thing: It may push Saudi Arabia and Russia together, but I think the larger story is how this may — these events of the last hours may push Russia and China together. I think that’s a big story. They’re not going to be partners. They’re not going to be friends by any measure, but there is a transactional element. As Russia, seeing the Westernizers inside Russia undermined in the last years by different factors, Putin will turn east most likely. And that’s not just to China, but it’s to parts of the world which the NATO-Western crowd doesn’t consider often legitimate, but it’s real. I noticed that China, I believe, is going to buy massive amount of wheat from Russia. And there will be other purchases, not just from China, that will enable Russia, sadly, probably, to overtake the sanctions. But, Amy, the real problem with sanctions, as we know, is sanctions are another form of warfare. And they often — and I’ve seen this over the years — hit ordinary Russians, who then do feel that the U.S. or those sanctioning are the enemy.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to thank you so much, Katrina vanden Heuvel, editorial director and publisher of The Nation magazine. We’ll link to your latest piece in The Nation, “Putin’s Invasion.”

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