Monday, September 18, 2006

Papa Devil

Before Mad Magazine had its fold up back page there were heretical fold ups of the Pope.....Call them the popular comics of the Reformation.


http://courses.ats.rochester.edu/hahn/eng150/milt04.JPG

When protestantism originated, that is the religious protesters; the heretics, the Waldensians, and other radical anabaptist sects who had been hunted and killed by the Catholic Church Inquisition.

They used these pictures and coins to depict the Pope as the devil. Just a little sectarian blasphemy I thought I would share with you. In light of the Popes recent comments on Medival philosophy of the same time period. And since he was in charge of the modern day Inquisition they seemed appropriate.

Just say the devil made me do it.

For an excellent overview of the popular anarchist revolutionary spirit of the Reformation see Murray Bookchins the Third Revolution.






The image “http://www.christophereimer.co.uk/images/m/8646.jpg” cannot be displayed, because it contains errors.

Waldensian Coins of the two headed pope turn him upside down and he is the Devil

The image “http://www.christophereimer.co.uk/images/m/9092.jpg” cannot be displayed, because it contains errors.

"Dubbelkop Van Paus en Duivel" (Double-head - Pope and the Devil) - Anonymous - c. 1600 - Catarijneconvent Museum, Utrecht, The Neederlands.

The image “http://research.yale.edu/divdl/images/eire4.gif” cannot be displayed, because it contains errors.

Title / Description: Devil & Monk-Bagpipe
Location / Provenance: Germany
Date: 1525
Object Type: image - woodcut
Commentary: Negative images of monasticism abounded in the Middle Ages, but most aimed to lampoon and criticize corrupt monks and monasteries that were not living up to their vows, or abused their privileges. Erasmus, too, poked fun at monasticism as shallow and overly-focused on external piety. The Protestant Reformation went much further, launching a full-scale assault on monasticism as inherently corrupt and unnecessary. This image combines the older medieval tradition with the new Protestant message: monasticism must be abolished because monks are the tools of the devil. Here, a demon plays a bagpipe that nobody could fail to identify as a monk's head. Part of the message could be missed now, centuries later, for in the sixteenth century the bagpipe was commonly recognized as an instrument that signified lust. Protestant propaganda against monasticism seized on the idea that vows were seldom observed by monks and nuns--especially the vow of celibacy, and numerous accounts were published that described in detail how the cloisters were dens of iniquity. It became commonplace to reveal, for instance, that the remains of buried infants and fetuses could be found in great numbers inside cloisters. Many graphic accounts of what "really" went on in monasteries and convents, written by former monks and nuns, became a popular genre of Protestant propaganda literature. [Woodcut by Erhart Schon]
Source: Eire, Carlos M. N. , Private slide collection.



The image “http://research.yale.edu/divdl/images/eire16.gif” cannot be displayed, because it contains errors.

Title / Description: Catholic clergy in Hell
Location / Provenance: Germany
Date: 1540's
Object Type: image - woodcut
Commentary: This woodcut by Matthias Gerung focuses on one of the simplest and most appealing messages of the Reformation: the corruption of the Catholic church, and especially the corruption of its clerics. Divine wrath consumes the corrupt Catholic clergy as they are swallowed whole into the mouth of Hell.
Author of Commentary:Carlos Eire
Source: Eire, Carlos M. N. , Private slide collection.




Also See:

Pope

Catholic Church

Gnostic

Antinominalist Anarchism

Support Our PeaceMakers


Find blog posts, photos, events and more off-site about:
, , , , , , , , , ,

, , , , , , , ,, , ,
, , , , , , , , ,

, , , , , , , , , , , , ,

Mike Duffy Makeover

Scoop Alberta style. Yep while the Press Gallery continues its low intensity war with the PMO the CTV/Global/Bell network has made peace with the PM. In this case a remade Mike Duffy appears to have scooped an interview. He is skinnier, pockfaced and decidedly right wing of opinion.

Opps I'm sorry thats not Mike its David Rutherford of Corus Media group; Qr77 Calgary/CHED radio Edmonton fame.
" I have biases like everyone else and I don't hide them."

The right wing mouthpiece of the Reform wing of the Conservative party. Man if you lived here and ever listened to this guy well you would know that all that comes out of either Klein or Harper, or Manning before him, is pure policial wisdom. Mike wasn't on the show today Rutherford was, with a fawning interview with his old Calgary pal Harper.

It was political softball. Not hardball. Rutherford empitomizes the right wing talk show hosts that dominate the Corus Radio, Canwest, Global media universe in Canada.

Given these guys are pals well watch for yourself and see.

In a one-on-one interview with the Western Standard in June, Prime Minister Harper responded to the controversy by saying the gallery has made it easier for him to communicate his messages. "I'm free to pick my interviews when and where I want to have them," he told the Standard. "The great irony is, the result is precisely the opposite of what those doing it claim to be seeking. They say if I don't do it their way, I'll somehow gain more control over my media relations. Well, I've got more control now."

It's just like the Klein regime, which also favours CTV affiliates in Alberta giving them preferential access to the Premier for years. Paying for his fireside chats to be broadcast on the private network. It appears Harper is doing the same old Klein trick.

So if the CBC is liberal lefty media in Canada can we be forgiven for calling CTV, Corus, Canwest, now the voice of the right. Was Duffy really ill or is this an ousting of the Liberal dominated political reporting in a shift to the right. A testing of the waters to see if Rutherford has TV personality, he doesn't but hey it forced him to tone down his opinions in favour of letting others speak.

Oh and for my rightwhing friends like BBS and Dazzling Dino who always comment on how our troops in Afghanistan never were there for peacekeeping, read Harpers lips...he says "Our troops were in Kandahar doing peacekeeping, handing out candy to children" when the nasty Taliban killed them.

So one day its peacekeeping the next its warmaking. Yep this mission is clear to all of us now. Thanks CTV.




Find blog posts, photos, events and more off-site about:
, , , , , , , , , , , ,

Untested Tool

"Ignatieff is an untested tool." said Robert Fife, CTV's Ottawa Bureau Chief on Mike Duffy Live today.

Yep I agree he is a tool. As much as Harper is. Of US foriegn policy in Canada and around the world.

If the Liberals elect him leader, please please do, then the difference between them and the Conservatives will be this....

http://images.quizilla.com/S/SiNY16/1089176205_uresQuiz38.jpg


Also See

Liberal Leadership Race



Find blog posts, photos, events and more off-site about:
, , , , , ,

, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

RCMP Lies Lead To Torture

The first and most important thing we learned from the O'Connor report on the Maher Arar case was..

No evidence Mr. Arar has committed any offence or is a threat to Canadian security.

So this brings into disbute all those currently being held in Canada's secret prison, who have also been identified as potential security threats.

He also found "troubling questions" about the role played by Canadian officials in the cases of three other Arab-Canadians, Ahmad El Maati, Abdullah Almalki and Muayyed Nureddin. All were tortured in Syria after traveling there on personal business, and all suspect that the RCMP and/or Canada's spy agency collaborated with their captors.

Was it really a case of post 9/11 hysteria that led the RCMP to jump to conclusions in the Arar case. Was it incompetence, a failure to clarify information from dubious sources. Or was it something more sinister, racial profiling of a political nature.

That is what we don't know from today's Arar Report because of State Secrecy.


Among other things, O'Connor's report found:

  • American officials "very likely" relied on the inaccurate information from the RCMP when they decided to send Arar to Syria, a country known to have aggressive techniques for interrogating suspects.
  • There is no evidence that Arar committed any offence, nor is there anything to suggest he is a threat to Canadian security.
  • Canadian agencies wrongly accepted information from Syrian sources about Arar after his detention, without determining whether it might have been extracted using torture.
  • In order to protect themselves and portray Arar in an unflattering light, Canadian officials leaked inaccurate details about Arar to news media.
  • Officials from the RCMP gave a sanitized summary of the Arar case to top government officials in order to cover up RCMP mistake.

What we do know is that after 9/11 the State Security Bills passed by the Liberal government went too far in giving a free hand to the State and its police, the RCMP, and its secret service, CSIS, to spy, harass, arrest and create secret files on Canadian citizens. Reports they shared with the CIA and other American agencies. Reports they lied about and covered up. And their sources of information were tainted since they came from the Secret Police operating in a country that is a dictatroship, Syria.

Meaning that there is NO real oversight of those who have been given the power of life and death over us in the name of security. Heads should role over this, including bueracrats in the government, the Head of CSIS and the RCMP, members of the Department of Foreign Affairs who failed to act on Arar's behalf.

The key players in the Arar affair

There needs to be an emergency debate in the house to get rid of the existing security act that allows for racial profiling.

The Americans refuse to accept any responsibility for their actions in this despicable affair. But in light of the expose of the secret CIA jails and use of torture and rendition, this should add fuel to the debate south of the border.

Never forget it was the Liberal Government with the collusion of the Conservatives who did this. And if Ignatieff gets in as leader of the Liberals this will remain their policy.

See:

Arar


Liberal Leadership Race


CIA



Find blog posts, photos, events and more off-site about:
, , , , , ,

, , , , , , , , , ,
, , , , , , , , , ,
, , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

Pyramid in Ukraine

Bronze Age pyramid found in Ukraine

The discovery of a Bronze age pyramid in the Ukraine, pre-dating Egyptian pyramids and those of South America gives credibility to the assertion of a young amatuer pyramidologist that there may be a pyramid in Bosnia.

Indiana Jones of the Balkans and the mystery of a hidden pyramid ...


With this latest find it appears that pyramid culture, like monument builders was a distinct development in human civilization. Challening two assumptions, first that people in ancient Europe were primitive and underdeveloped and second that they were nomadic and war like. See Kurgan Peoples.

In fact this discovery also gives greater credence to the controversial theories of archaeologist Maria Gimbutas who claimed that the earliest Indo-Europeans came from the Ukraine. Ukrainian scholars have claimed that a distinct Kievan (the Rus) culture existed early than it is credited with by Western scholars.


Indo-European Origins in Southeast Europe

Followed by expansion into India as well as Persia.

If this pyramid is older than those found in Egypt then this discovery may indicate that Indo-Europeans arrived in the Nile region coincidental with similar movements of Semitic and African peoples at the time.

3rd millennium BC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Photo from www.inauka.ru

Archaeologists in Ukraine have unearthed the remains of an ancient pyramidal structure that pre-dates those in Egypt by at least 300 years. The stone foundations of the structure, which probably resembled Aztec and Mayan ziggurats in South America, were discovered near the eastern city of Lugansk.

It is thought they were laid about five millennia ago during the early Bronze Age by animists who worshipped a sun god. The “pyramid” is in fact a complex of temples and sacrificial altars topping a sculpted hillside with steps on its sides.

Viktor Klochko, head of the excavation, said the discovery was of international significance. “This is the first monument of its age and kind found in eastern Europe,” he told the Guardian. “It changes our whole conception of the social structure and the level of development of the cattle breeders and farmers who were the direct ancestors of most European peoples.”

SEE:

The Monument Builders






Find blog posts, photos, events and more off-site about:
, , , , , , , , , ,

Canada and NAM

Canada should withdraw from NATO, a position that has been longstanding in the NDP. Until Jack Layton buried it changing party policy on the fly in the 2004 election claiming that the NDP now supports NATO. Now the chickens come home to roost over Afghanistan.

We should also withdraw from NORAD which is fast becoming an excuse for BMD and the weaponization of space. It was also a colossal failure during 9/11 because it is under American command.

Instead we should take the Third Way and join the Non-Aligned Movement (NAM). Which met in Cuba this weekend.


Representatives of regional groups advocate revitalizing the NAM


An old bulwark against both US and Soviet Imperialism, Canada's involvement would go along way to further legitimizing NAM and give it the Social Democratic Internationalist/Multilaterialst voice it needs. This could only be done by an NDP government. NAM is a legitimate international alliance recognized by the UN. And our historic recognition of Cuba shows that a Third Way was and is possible.
At the very least we sahould attend NAM conferences as an observer.

Cuba has scored international notice by hosting the NAM conference.

This week, Cuba used the mystery surrounding Fidel Castro's health to attract attention to the Nonaligned Movement summit in Havana.

With the help of ally Hugo Chavez, the country kicked-off an effort to revitalize the 116-member NAM organization and transform it into a force countering U.S. predominance in the world.

Despite the usual American jingoist reporting on the conference as being a rogues gallery of Americas enemies, that is far from what NAM was and is historically. It acted as a third way between competing Imperialisms during the Cold War. And today its revival will insure that the US. cannot act as the sole Imperialist superpower.


Cuban President Fidel Castro, right, met United Nations Secretary General Koffi Annan in a Havana hospital room on Thursday. (Juventud Rebeld/Associated Press) Cuban President Fidel Castro, right, met United Nations Secretary General Koffi Annan in a Havana hospital room on Thursday. (Juventud Rebeld/Associated Press)

Nonaligned Movement supports Cuba, Venezuela and Bolivia
The 92-page declaration also broadly condemned terrorism, with exceptions and asserted the right of all countries – Cuba and Venezuela were mentioned – to determine their own form of government.

And while declaring democracy to be a universal value, the movement said no one country or region should define it for the whole world. The leaders mentioned Venezuela and Cuba in particular as they asserted the right of all countries to determine their own form of government. The statements, many of which contain veiled criticisms of the U.S., were to be approved by unanimous consent after another round of speeches Saturday night by leaders of the Nonaligned Movement.

“No one in the Nonaligned Movement thinks that the United States is responsible for all the problems, but many think that it is for some,”

Raul joined numerous U.S. foes who said a bellicose America had made the world more dangerous.

“The United States spends one billion dollars a year in weapons and soldiers,” he said. “To think that a social and economic order that has proven unsustainable could be maintained by force is simply an absurd idea.”

Many demanded that the United Nations take action against U.S. veto power in the security council. “The U.S. is turning the security council into a base for imposing its politics,” Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad complained. “Why should people live under the nuclear threat of the U.S.?”

The document supports Iran's position while encouraging Iran to continue cooperating with the International Atomic Energy Agency. North Korea Parliament leader Kim Yong Nam claimed his communist nation “would not need even a single nuclear weapon if there no longer existed
U.S. threat,” and said U.S. financial sanctions have “driven the situation into an unpredictable phase.”

U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan agreed that the security council must be more responsive to less powerful countries. “The Security Council must reform, for the sake of the developing world, and for the sake of the United Nations itself,'' Annan told the Nonaligned leaders. “The perception of a narrow power-base risks leading to an erosion of the U.N.'s authority and legitimacy, even, some would argue, its neutrality and independence. I have in the past described this as a democracy deficit.”

The Nonaligned Movement was formed in 1961 to establish a neutral third path in a world divided by the United States and the Soviet Union. Cuba last hosted the group in Havana 27 years ago.

The world has changed dramatically since then, but Annan said its collective mission is more relevant than ever: promoting democracy, protecting human rights and developing civil societies. Many leaders said their group will be stronger with Fidel Castro as the movement's president, but it's unclear whether the 80-year-old Castro will recover enough from intestinal surgery to guide the group for the next three years until Egypt takes over.

SEE:

NATO

NDP

Cuba

Latin America


Find blog posts, photos, events and more off-site about:
, , , , , , , , , , , , ,

How Long?

NATO faces five-year effort to pacify Afghanistan Let's see five plus 2006 equals 2011. Not 2009 as the Conservative government would have us believe. Just like the latest claims of victory over the Taliban are exaggerated....NATO hails Afghan offensive as success .....they have withdrawn back across the border into the safety of Pakistan. Gone but not defeated. More lies our government is telling us.

Taliban vow to retake Panjwai redoubt

The Taliban fighter who passed through Kandahar city this weekend seemed remarkably calm and happy, considering the horrors he has seen in the past two weeks.

The 37-year-old watched friends torn apart by bombs and shredded by gunfire. More agonizingly for a proud warrior, he saw foreign soldiers seize control of the farmland where he grew up. Hundreds of insurgents had dug trenches to defend Panjwai District, but they ran away when confronted with an onslaught of air power and a grinding advance by the Canadians and their allies, who declared victory in the battle yesterday.

"The Taliban will continue their fight for Panjwai," the fighter said.



Also See:

Afghanistan





The image “http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4319/673/320/2006-08-31-Troops.jpg” cannot be displayed, because it contains errors.


Find blog posts, photos, events and more off-site about:
, , , , , , , , ,
, , , , , , , , , , , ,, , , , , , , , , , , , , ,, , , , , , , , , , , ,, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,, , , , , , , , , , , , ,

Tags







When Is Sorry Not Sorry

When you don't apologise for what you said but for the reacton to what you said.

Pope 'deeply sorry' at backlash on comments

And we are still waiting for him to apologize for his attacks on secular, humanist, pluralistic, democratic society. And for all the martyrs the Catholic Church created who fought for this society.Because the Vatican has never apologized for its attack on rationalism or science. Nor has it ceased to attack reason and science.

Remember Giordano Bruno died for you.

"The universe comprises all being in a totality; for nothing that exists is outside or beyond infinite being, as the latter has no outside or beyond." Giordano Bruno, On the Cause, Principle, and Unity (fifth dialogue).

Giordano Bruno can, without much doubt, be referred to as the martyr of Freethought.

Giordano Bruno: The Forgotten Philosopher
For six years, between 1593 and 1600 he lay in a Papal prison. Was he forgotten, tortured? Whatever historical records there are never have been published by those authorities who have them. In the year 1600 a German scholar Schoppius happened to be in Rome and wrote about Bruno, who was interrogated several times by the Holy Office and convicted by the chief theologians. At one time he obtained forty days to consider his position; by and by he promised to recant, then renewed his "follies." Then he got another forty days for deliberation but did nothing but baffle the pope and the Inquisition. After two years in the custody of the Inquisitor he was taken on February ninth to the palace of the Grand Inquisitor to hear his sentence on bended knee, before the expert assessors and the Governor of the City.

Bruno answered the sentence of death by fire with the threatening: "Perhaps you, my judges, pronounce this sentence against me with greater fear than I receive it." He was given eight more clays to see whether he would repent. But it was no use. He was taken to the stake and as he was dying a crucifix was presented to him, but he pushed it away with fierce scorn.

Giordano Bruno and the Infinite Universe

The image “http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/world/modeur/bruno-75a.gif” cannot be displayed, because it contains errors.


Giordano Bruno the Nolan was an excommunicated Dominican friar who had developed an art, science and philosophy which was a Hermetic interpretation of Copernicus and Lucretius. Francis A. Yates, a primary interpreter of Bruno for our age, has written of him, The lunatic, the lover, and the poet were never all of imagination so compact as in Giordano Bruno. His life and stand against the mediocrity of papal hierarchy and monastic privilege of his times is the essence of the artist/rebel/poet which we are so familiar with now.






Also See:

Pope

Catholic Church

Abortion

Same Sex Marriage

Gnostic


Find blog posts, photos, events and more off-site about:
, , , , , , , , , ,

, , , , , , , ,, , ,
, , , , , , , , ,

Our Own Bush

While George Bush attempts to justify secret jails, rendition, and 'nuanced' definitions of torture in the name of Freedom Fries, Democracy Chips and the war on terror, nary a word is said in Canada about this same issue by the Liberal Leadership Candidates.

Nope not a word. And yet it was under the Liberals that this happened.....
Arar: Still under scrutiny four years after ordeal and this........Canada: A torturer's apprentice?......and this....Khadr Canada's Shame

And the Liberals have a Leadership candidate who not only supports the right to use torture but uses a nuanced defense of torture in the name of democracy, freedom, and the American way. And his name is Ignatieff.

Evil under Interrogation: Is Torture ever Permissible?
by Michael Ignatieff
May 15, 2004
Reprinted from the Financial Times


And he was still advocating for 'nuanced' Torture this spring after throwing his hat in the Liberal Leadership ring.


Prospect April 2006 | 121 » Essays » If torture works...
The debate over torture is not as simple as it seems. Those of us who oppose torture under any circumstances should admit that ours is an unpopular policy that may make us more vulnerable to terrorism
Michael Ignatieff


Says one right wing blogger in the U.S. of this particular article by Ignatieff.....
I had been meaning to link to this article by Michael Ignatieff in the April 2006 issue of Prospect magazine, on torture. (I am particularly interested in his quote from Ken Roth, in which Ken says that "vigorous" questioning of torture suspects is okay, but then, so far as I can tell, regards anything that goes beyond what the Geneva Conventions mandate for full blown, acknowledged POWs under Geneva III to be out of bounds, even for unprivileged combatants.) I think this is a quite brave and quite persuasive argument by Michael - this is a case in which Michael's agoniste method of moral philosophy performs impressively, and avoids the problem that Mark Steyn lampooned in an article on Ignatieff a few months ago in Maclean's, the problem of Hamletting.




And nary a word about it from any of his rivals. Because it was under the Liberal government that Canadian citizens were sent to Syria to be tortured under the illegal CIA rendition progam. And while his opponents have challenged him on Iraq and Afghanistan they have failed to challenge him on this key question.

The Ethics of Torture

A more philosophically complicated route to much the same conclusion is taken by Harvard's Michael Ignatieff in a new book, The Lesser Evil: Political Ethics in an Age of Terror. Ignatieff hedges his answer: He's against torture but in favor of "coercive interrogations.'' Our counter-terrorist actions should be openly debated and subject to review by all three branches of the federal government, he argues, conjuring up, in my mind, congressional debates and court decisions about whether it's OK to hack off a prisoner's finger but not his whole hand.

But the point is a serious one. The ultimate evil, Ignatieff says, would be for Americans to become so frightened that we demand a virtual police state to protect us. By comparison, giving up some civil liberties — for ourselves and our prisoners — is the lesser and necessary evil.

I think he and I would agree that the hypothetical situation does focus on one important point. Requiring presidential approval for physical abuse of a prisoner would, whatever the president decided, be a major improvement over the present situation, in which an attitude gets set at the top and just trickles down to the people at the action level, leaving the president and other big-wigs free to deny any responsibility.


Do you sir support the continued use of torture of Canadian citizens.
Yes or No.

But of coures we all know the anwser, he is a true Liberal.....


Ignatieff ducks debate with critics in torture row


So I must ask. If elected leader of the Liberals whom will he jail and torture?

Exporting Democracy, Revising Torture: The Complex Missions of Michael Ignatieff

Michael Ignatieff: Michael Ignatieff, who calls himself a liberal and a human rights campalgner, is a wolf in sheep's clothing


PMag v21n3p06 -- The Terrorized Worlds of Jack and Michael
Andres Kahar begins with a question: What do Jack Bauer, protagonist of TV's 24, and Michael Ignatieff, protagonist of reality's Harvard University, have in common? That question leads us into very dark subject matter.

FRIDE - Exporting Democracy, Revising Torture: The Complex Missions of Michael Ignatieff

Michael Ignatieff has been useful to the US government as it has tried to promote democracy in the middle east. He brings to this unofficial job a special, double-edged approach: he provides conservative arguments to the liberal audience and liberal alibis to the conservatives

If you scratch a Liberal you find an authoritarian as nasty as any Tory. One who would impose a police state on Canadians if they deemed it necessary. As has happened in the past. By the very Liberal Icon whom Ignatieff is seen as reincarnating.

Trudeau
: Yes, well there are a lot of bleeding hearts around who just don't like to see people with helmets and guns. All I can say is, go on and bleed. But it is more important to keep law and order in the society than to worry about weak-kneed people who don't like the looks of—

CBC reporter Tim Ralfe
(interrupting): At any cost? How far would you go with that? How far would you extend that

Trudeau
: Well, just watch me.


Finally one should ask the Man Who Would Be PM where does he really feel at home.....

Legal Affairs
March April 2005

America the Mercurial

A new theory predicts when countries will honor or renege on their international obligations. Guess who doesn't fit the model.

By Michael Ignatieff


Hathaway is mistaken in assuming that domestic constituencies in all democracies will push their governments toward complying with international treaties. This may be the case in Canada and Western Europe, but it is not the case here at home. Uniquely among Western nations, the United States has an entrenched domestic constituency that actively opposes the loss of power it equates with international law. This constituency first emerged after 1945 among the Senate's defenders of segregation, when Southern Democrats opposed ratifying human rights treaties because they would put Jim Crow in the international dock. In deference to this lobby, the United States effectively withdrew from international human rights from the period of the Eisenhower presidency to the Carter Administration. In addition to the segregationists, another group opposed the Roosevelt Administration's liberal multilateralism on the grounds that the U.N. and the Security Council would step on the toes of U.S. sovereignty.



Also See

Liberal Leadership Race


CIA



Find blog posts, photos, events and more off-site about:
, , , , , ,

, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
, , , , , , , , , , , ,