Monday, February 20, 2023

Buttigieg urges Norfolk Southern to support Ohio town after train derailment



Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg speaking in Washington, D.C., on Feb. 13. 

Photo: Tom Williams/CQ-Roll Call, Inc via Getty Images

Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg sent rail operator Norfolk Southern a letter on Sunday over the derailment of one of its trains carrying hazardous materials near East Palestine, Ohio, earlier this month.

Why it matters: In the three-page letter to Norfolk Southern president and CEO Alan Shaw, Buttigieg accused the company of putting profits before safety measures and urged it to "demonstrate unequivocal support for the people" of East Palestine.

  • Train cars carrying at least five different types of chemicals were involved in the derailment, and at least three of those chemicals were either spilled during or released and burned after the wreck.
  • After the derailment, the company released and burned vinyl chloride, a colorless but hazardous and carcinogenic gas used to produce PVC plastic and vinyl products, from five tanker cars because of an explosion risk.
  • At least one now-dammed local waterway was contaminated as a result of the crash.

What they're saying: "The arithmetic suggests Norfolk Southern can remain extremely profitable while also complying with a higher standard of safety regulation and offering better consideration to its workers. Similar patterns appear across your entire industry," the letter reads.

  • "In this context, Norfolk Southern and your industry must demonstrate that you will not seek to supercharge profits by resisting higher standards that could benefit the safety of workers and the safety of American communities, like East Palestine," it continues.
  • Buttigieg said the National Transportation Safety Board is in the process of determining the cause of the derailment, while the Federal Railroad Administration is investigating whether the company violated safety measures with the train.

The big picture: Ohio state agencies and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency have said they have not detected any levels of hazardous substances released during or after the crash in the air or municipal water in or near East Palestine.

  • Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine said on Friday the Department of Health and Human Services and state health authorities would set up a clinic inside the town as a precautionary measure, which would allow any resident to visit a doctor over any health concerns.
  • Norfolk Southern CEO Shaw met with officials in East Palestine on Feb. 18.

Read the letter:

Go deeper: East Palestine residents "right to be skeptical" after train derailment, Ohio senator says


Clinic To Open Near Ohio Derailment As Health Worries Linger

Despite assurances that air and water testing has shown no signs of contaminants, residents remain skeptical.

A tank car sits on a trailer as the cleanup of portions of a Norfolk Southern freight train that derailed 
over a week ago continues in East Palestine, Ohio, Wednesday, February 15, 2023. Photo Credit: AP Photo

EAST PALESTINE, Ohio (AP) — A plume of chemicals that spilled into the Ohio River after a fiery train derailment has broken up and is no longer a concern, Ohio's governor said Friday, but worries remain among residents near the disaster site who've complained about lingering headaches and irritated eyes.

Despite repeated assurances that air and water testing has shown no signs of contaminants, some around East Palestine, along the Pennsylvania state line, are still skeptical and afraid to return to their homes.

Early next week, the state plans to open a medical clinic in the village to evaluate those who are worried and evaluate their symptoms, Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine announced. The clinic will include a team of experts in chemical exposures that is being deployed to eastern Ohio.

“These are very legitimate questions and residents deserve an answer,” DeWine said while also emphasizing that testing inside and outside of homes in the village have no found no signs of toxins that were on the train.

“We're doing absolutely everything we can to assure residents to what the situation is,” he said. “I understand people have been traumatized. I understand skepticism.”

Earlier this week, hundreds of people showed up at a public meeting to voice concerns and get answers from not only state and local leaders but also railroad operator Norfolk Southern. But representatives of the railroad were absent, saying they were worried about physical threats.

DeWine was upset by the no-show and said Norfolk Southern President and CEO Alan Shaw needs to go to East Palestine and answer questions.

At least five lawsuits have been filed against the railroad and lawyers have been showing up in the area to offer advice and legal options

Two weeks have now passed since the freight train carrying a variety of hazardous chemicals derailed but the stench of what spilled hasn't left. In the aftermath, residents have complained about finding their cars covered in soot, their homes filled with overpowering odors and their pets getting sick or dying.

The chemicals also spilled into nearby creeks, killing thousands of fish, and eventually made their way into the Ohio River.

While environmental officials said the contaminant amounts in the river were low enough that they did not pose a threat, cities in Ohio and West Virginia that get their drinking water from the river had been monitoring a slow-moving plume and a few temporarily switched to alternative water sources.

Water samples on Friday showed the plume is now completely gone, DeWine said.

The governor also said that air testing inside 500 homes hasn’t detected dangerous levels in the village since residents were allowed to return after the controlled release and burn of five tanker cars filled with vinyl chloride, which is associated with increased risk of certain cancers.

DeWine said the derailment has been traumatic for the village of just under 5,000 people. But he said “no one is trying to downplay anything.”

Ohio Health Department Director Bruce Vanderhoff said the extensive testing of air and water that has been in place the past two weeks should be reassuring.

“We have been guided from the beginning by people who are national experts on what to test for,” he said.

____

BY PATRICK ORSAGOS and JOHN SEEWER, The Associated Press

Ohio train derailment could bring cancer risk, millions in damage

The cleanup of portions of a Norfolk Southern freight train that derailed Friday night in East Palestine, Ohio, continues on Thursday, Feb. 9, 2023. (AP Photo/Gene J. Puskar)

By BLOOMBERG | |
PUBLISHED: February 15, 2023
By Thomas Black

Nearly two weeks after a train carrying carcinogenic chemicals derailed in East Palestine, Ohio, the extent of the damage to the nearby community is still unclear. Railroads face a traffic backlog and operator Norfolk Southern Corp. could rack up tens of millions of dollars in costs.

Though residents have been allowed to return to their homes, many remain concerned about the long-term environmental effects of the Feb. 3 accident. Some of them watched from a distance as a fiery cloud blazed above the wreckage after Norfolk Southern, in conjunction with authorities, decided to intentionally vent and burn some of the railcars to avoid a potential explosion.

“I’ve had discussions with some people who live right near ground zero who are hesitant to come back,” said James Wise, a local attorney who filed a class-action lawsuit against Norfolk Southern on behalf of some residents. “There are people with young children and they don’t know what effects it’s going to have.”

Norfolk Southern is likely to take a special charge in the first quarter to cover costs of the accident, Cowen Inc. analyst Jason Seidl wrote in a Tuesday report. The company’s shares are already down almost 7% since the derailment. Rail operations resumed last week, although delays continue.
Carcinogen spill

The 150-car Norfolk Southern train was hauling about 20 railcars containing chemicals including vinyl chloride, ethylhexyl acrylate and isobutylene, according to the US Environmental Protection Agency. Vinyl chloride, which is used to make the plastic resin known as PVC, is a carcinogen linked to cancers of the liver, brain and lungs, according to the National Cancer Institute.

It’s difficult to know exactly how much of the chemicals were burned off in the fire and how much might have leached into the ground and surrounding waterways. Surface water samples taken by Pace Analytical Services on Feb. 4 detected contaminants from the derailment, the Ohio Environmental Protection Agency said.

The resulting spill killed 3,500 fish, according to the Ohio Department of Natural Resources. No livestock were affected, authorities said. Still, reports circulated on social media of dead chickens and pets. There were no immediate fatalities or injuries.

Since the fire was extinguished on Feb. 8, “air monitoring has not detected any levels of health concern in the community that are attributed to the train derailment,” said a statement from the regional EPA administrator on Tuesday.

The US EPA has urged Norfolk Southern to reimburse it for costs related to the crash as soon as possible, citing its “potential liability” in a Feb. 10 letter. Chief Executive Officer Alan Shaw promised that the the company would pay for a thorough cleanup, Ohio Governor Mike DeWine said Tuesday. A representative for Norfolk Southern confirmed the pledge.

Tens of millions


Railroads are the workhorse mode of transportation for hazardous materials moving around the US, and in 2021 they carried 992 million tons of such products, according to the American Chemistry Council. Under US law, rail carriers must transport chemicals even if the potential risk of doing so outweighs the reward.

While train derailments happen fairly regularly, those involving hazardous materials are less common. Of the more than 12,000 derailments logged by the Bureau of Transportation Statistics over the past decade, only 224 were carrying hazmat, according to analysts at JPMorgan Chase & Co.

In 2005, Norfolk Southern had a 16-car derailment in Graniteville, South Carolina, that included a tanker car with chlorine. That accident killed 10 people and took years to clean up, Cowen’s Seidl said. The railroad incurred about $35 million of expenses related to that incident.

Another accident involving vinyl chloride occurred in 2012 when a Conrail train derailed in Paulsboro, NJ. That accident resulted in about $30 million of damages, Ariel Rosa, an analyst with Credit Suisse Group AG, said in Feb. 13 report.

“Our review of the history of such non-fatal incidents suggests that damages typically range from several million dollars to several tens of millions,” Rosa said.

Wise, the local attorney, said at this point there are more questions than answers. He was forced to evacuate his office, and kept it closed after his assistant returned on Feb. 9 to find a lingering odor. “What are the lasting effects? Is our water going to be affected? Is our health going to be affected?”

Wise decided to keep the firm’s office closed until this past Monday.

Interview: WANO prepares for growth of new nuclear

13 February 2023


World Association of Nuclear Operators (WANO) chairman Tom Mitchell and new CEO Naoki Chigusa are optimistic about the future of the nuclear energy sector, and are taking steps to ensure the organisation is well placed to offer new players in the industry help and advice.

Tom Mitchell, pictured at last year's Biennial General Meeting (Image: WANO)

It is now more than three decades since WANO was created with a mission "to maximise the safety and reliability of nuclear power plants worldwide" and Mitchell and Chigusa are determined that it will continue to fulfil that function, with a wave of new entrants to the industry expected in the years ahead.

In an interview with World Nuclear News, they stressed the introduction of a new category of member (category 5), for those who do not yet have operating reactors (with WANO, each reactor is individually a member).

The organisation carries out peer reviews, where experts from various member countries and companies visit other members to advise on safety and best practice. With new nuclear, the focus is on helping organisations move from the construction phase into the operation phase successfully, "which is not a simple thing".

Mitchell says: "As soon as an organisation decides they are going to build a plant, they should become a category 5 member because for a small investment they will gain a lot of knowledge - the sooner they are acclimated to what we’re doing and become part of what we call a community, they gain the most and by the time we get to the pre-startup peer review, they are in pretty good shape."

And it does seem like there is likely to be a big number of new entrants to the sector, from countries developing their first nuclear power plants, to the dozens of small modular reactor developers and operators.

Mitchell, who stresses that WANO is a safety-focused organisation that does not seek to advocate the case for nuclear, says that his personal view is that "this is a very exciting time ... you know there is no credible way to deal with the climate change issue, the rapid decarbonisation, without nuclear. I’m not saying that nuclear is the only way to achieve this, there needs to be a mix".

"Nuclear has a key and essential role in achieving this. We have to maintain this option - maintaining this option means we have to operate these plants safely and reliably, maintain public confidence in the technology and we need to be ready for potentially a whole new set of players who may not have that 45 years of experience that OPG has or others, who want to become part of this and be successful because I do believe that we are all in this together."

Chigusa, who took over as CEO at the start of the year, has more than 40 years' experience in the nuclear industry, and will certainly have plenty to do in his new role - as well as the expanding membership numbers, there is a new Shanghai centre to add to WANO's existing regional centres in Paris, Moscow, Atlanta and Tokyo.

He comes to the post after eight years as director general of WANO's Tokyo centre, where he played a key role in piloting the Action for Excellence initiative which sees a lot more contact and on-going support for members on top of the peer-review missions that have been traditional.

Chigusa says that as WANO CEO he can continue that work and take his fieldwork "into the global organisation" and bring it into the "implementation stage without losing any momentum". He says WANO must be "visionary leaders" in its key areas, wanting to "embed" its nuclear safety philosophy into newcomers.

He also aims to spread his motto of harmony based on the first article of Japan’s 604AD constitution - uniting minds, understanding different interests and combining forces in one direction. Mitchell says the organisation is excited to have a different and fresh cultural perspective for what is a multinational and multicultural global organisation.

One area is developing the language options for the organisation and members - English is its official language but better tools are being developed to avoid language issues, and to ensure WANO is not English-, or Western-, centric. Mitchell says that while executives might well have English at a high level, there are many people involved in key roles in operations who may not.

Another development is the transitioning of the Shanghai office from a supporting role to a regional centre, under Director Chen Hua, who has previously served as a WANO governor at the Tokyo centre’s regional governing board. There is also some continuity with the appointment of Kim Keeyoung - previously at KHNP and a previous deputy director secondee at the WANO Tokyo centre - as Chigusa’s successor as director general of the Tokyo centre.

Meanwhile attention continues to be focused on what can be done to help amid the on-going war in Ukraine, which has seen one of its member nuclear power plants occupied by the military of another of its members.

The organisation seeks to focus on safety issues and is non-political, and does not have the diplomatic capability of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) "to have boots on the ground". This has led to a two-pronged approach, of supporting and collaborating with the IAEA’s efforts, and seeking to support the plant operators in Ukraine, including a recent mission carried out virtually.

"Our mantra has always been that we are here to support the operators … we don’t want any power plant to become isolated, we are all part of a community and I think we all agree that our mission is nuclear safety and we don’t think it would be in the interest of nuclear safety for any organisation or plant to become isolated. We’re going to support all of our members, try to find creative ways to accommodate the situation and not letting any group or organisation become separated," Mitchell said.

Researched and written by World Nuclear News

China starts building long-distance nuclear heating pipeline

17 February 2023

Construction has begun of a 23-kilometre-long pipe that will transport nuclear-generated heat from the Haiyang nuclear power plant in China's Shandong province to a wider area, State Power Investment Corp (SPIC) announced. The plant started providing district heat to the surrounding area in November 2020.

The ceremony marked the launch of a long-distance nuclear heating pipeline (Image: SPIC)

A ceremony was held on 4 February in the city of Yantai, near the Haiyang plant, to mark the start of construction of a pipeline to the city of Weihai.

"The heat pipe network marks the official start of China's first long-distance nuclear energy heat supply pipeline network project across prefecture-level cities," SPIC said. "It will realise cross-regional intercommunication and sharing of zero-carbon heat sources."

So far, the nuclear energy heating source project has completed an investment of CNY390 million (USD57 million), the company said. Installation of equipment at unit 2 of the Haiyang plant to extract heat began in July last year and has now been completed. The heating pipe network and pumping station in the plant are now being constructed.

The project is planned to be put into operation before the end of 2023, SPIC said.

The long-distance pipeline will have an annual heating capacity that can reach 9.7 million gigajoules, providing heat to a 13 million square metre area and meeting the needs of 1 million residents. This will replace the consumption of some 900,000 tonnes of coal, reducing carbon dioxide emissions by 1.65 million tonnes.

The Haiyang plant officially started providing district heat to the surrounding area in November 2020. A trial of the project - the country's first commercial nuclear heating project - was carried out the previous winter, providing heat to 700,000 square metres of housing, including the plant's dormitory and some local residents. Earlier in 2020, the project began providing heating to the entire Haiyang city.

The first phase of a district heating demonstration project at the Qinshan nuclear power plant in China's southern Zhejiang Province was commissioned in December 2021. The project is divided into three phases. The initial phase now provides nuclear energy-generated central heating to 460,000 square metres of accommodation in three residential areas and 5000 square metres of apartments for nearly 4000 residents of Haiyan County. The overall project goal is to have a nuclear heating area of ​​4 million square metres by 2025, covering the main urban area of ​​Haiyan County and the entire area of ​​Shupu Town.

Russia, several East European countries, Switzerland and Sweden have all had nuclear-fuelled district heating schemes, and heat from nuclear power plants has also been sent to industrial sites in several countries.

Researched and written by World Nuclear News

US microreactor company sets up HALEU subsidiary

20 February 2023

Days after raising USD4.14 million towards research and development of its ZEUS portable advanced nuclear microreactor, NANO Nuclear Energy Inc has formed a subsidiary to develop, improve, and accelerate domestic US production of high-assay low enriched uranium (HALEU).

The ZEUS microreactor is designed to fit inside a standard shipping container (Image: NANO Nuclear Energy)

HALEU Energy Fuel Inc. "will focus on the future development of a domestic HALEU fuel fabrication pipeline for the broader advanced nuclear reactor industry, a national laboratory fuel supply, and providing fabricated fuels for research purposes" as well as playing a crucial role in powering the ZEUS reactor, the company said.

NANO Nuclear Energy CEO James Walker said the company had come to understand the "unique importance" of HALEU fuel in the development and propagation of advanced nuclear reactors both for the company and for national nuclear technology development. "As such, we saw the opportunity to create a domestic fuel producer and distributor, and at the same time become a truly vertically integrated nuclear energy company," he said.

New York-based NANO says it is "looking to disrupt the SMR space" by "building smaller, cheaper, and safer nuclear energy". The ZEUS portable microreactor, currently in development, features a fully solid core, removing heat through thermal conduction without the need for coolant and pumps. It is designed to fit inside a standard ISO shipping container, taking advantage of existing transportation infrastructure, and the modular reactor will be able to connect with local power grids or power systems, the company says. The company said that "former senior freight and logistics executives" were the leading investors in the oversubscribed USD4.14 million funding round which closed on 13 February.

NANO was set up by entrepreneur Jay Jiang Yu who became the company's first chairman and president in April 2022. "When I was first inspired to form NANO Nuclear, I could not envision the momentum that we have witnessed in this past year," he said. "Now, we are on our way to becoming a truly vertically-integrated company."

Researched and written by World Nuclear News

Call for support for LEGO nuclear power plant

03 February 2023


A LEGO fan has designed a model of a nuclear power plant - complete with features including a used fuel pool, control room, steam turbine and cooling system as well as the reactor and operators - and put it forward as a candidate for possible production by the LEGO Group.

BasAtHome's LEGO creation (Image: BasAtHome/LEGO Ideas)

The designer, identified only as BasAtHome, has submitted their creation on LEGO's Ideas platform for consideration as a potential future set for production by the Denmark-headquartered company. For this to happen, the prospective design must build a base of at least 10,000 supporters before being reviewed by the company and put into production.

"This LEGO supercritical water reactor can produce all the electricity you require for your LEGO City citizens," BasAtHome says in their description. "The reactor uses nuclear fission to generate heat, which boils steam until it becomes supercritical. It then uses this steam to generate electricity for your LEGO city. The reactor uses one cooling tower to provide cooling for the water used in the condensers. The reactor includes a spent fuel pool where you can store your used and unused fuel rods, a control room where your minifigures can control the reactor, a turbine building to generate the power and the reactor inside the reactor building itself.

"I built this reactor since I think nuclear energy is a very fascinating technology, and also since LEGO doesn't have many power plants yet.

"The build includes many features: it includes many of the important parts that you can find in any nuclear power plant such as a spent fuel pool, a control room, the steam turbine, a cooling system such as a cooling tower and of course the reactor itself!"

BasAtHome also proposes that the set - which would include 2995 pieces - should include five iconic LEGO minifigures to run the plant: two reactor operators, one security guard and two mechanics.

LEGO says it can take years for a fan-submitted creation to reach the review stage. BasAtHome's creation has already gained nearly 2000 supporters (as of 3 February). It must reach 5000 supporters within the next 177 days to reach the next milestone towards production.

Supporters can view BasAtHome's creation and vote for the set via the LEGO Ideas website.

Researched and written by World Nuclear News

Estonia to prepare legislation for nuclear programme

17 February 2023


The Estonian government has appointed Edinburgh, UK-based law company Castletown Law to advise it on law and legislation for the country's advanced civil nuclear energy programme. Last week, Fermi Energia selected GE Hitachi Nuclear Energy's BWRX-300 small modular reactor for potential deployment in the Baltic country by the early 2030s.

A rendering of a BWRX-300 plant (Image: GEH)

Castletown said the work will involve a comparative analysis of modern nuclear legislation and regulation in other jurisdictions which are in advanced stages of developing new regulatory structures for more efficient and effective delivery of advanced nuclear technology power systems.

The initial first stage report - which has now been submitted to the Estonian government - includes a review of existing laws, a comparative analysis to establish changes required across the relevant Estonian legislation and consultation with multiple stakeholders to establish the consensus view of the approach to provision of the new legislative structure.

Following the submission of Castletown's interim report - prepared together with local law firm Triniti and management consultancy Civitta - Castletown will begin working on the final report to the Estonian government and the draft legislative and regulatory structure to enable the safe and secure deployment, development and operation of advanced nuclear power technology in Estonia.

The detailed analysis by Castletown includes analysis and recommendations on international best practice utilising its experience in other jurisdictions and its knowledge of compliance with the International Atomic Energy Agency required approach, to the development of a regulated structure for a nuclear power nuclear programme.

"Using our highly experienced lawyers, who have worked in the international nuclear sector for many years, we bring an understanding and belief in the future of low carbon energy production using advanced nuclear technologies," said Andrew Renton, Principal at Castletown. "Taking a pragmatic approach to the application of international standards as now applied in many jurisdictions, it is apparent that adoption of best practice, will put Estonia in a leading position to expedite development and deployment of these exciting technologies."

"This is a fantastic opportunity to help to shape the regulatory structure and laws that Estonia will need if and when it makes the decision to go ahead and develop its civilian nuclear energy programme," added Simon Stuttaford, Principal at Castletown Law.

Researched and written by World Nuclear News


Atomic Hope review – a powerful case for pressing the nuclear power button

It’s not the first doc to herald the eco-nuclear movement but, even so, this is still a convincing argument in favour of the long-tabooed energy source



Peter Bradshaw
@PeterBradshaw1
Wed 15 Feb 2023 

Here is a film that returns us to a thorny revisionist subject which I haven’t seen aired in documentary form since the film Pandora’s Promise in 2013 – which isn’t mentioned here, though a poster for it is visible in one shot. For many environmentalists, the last realistic hope we have to avert climate disaster is the great unthinkable, the great unmentionable: stop worrying and learn to love nuclear energy, because nuclear is a colossally efficient and very clean energy source.

Like Pandora’s Promise, Atomic Hope revisits the case studies of Chornobyl and Fukushima and argues that, although clearly catastrophic, a mythology of horror has grown up around these events that has stymied all debate and shut down thought. The film doesn’t say so, but another way the eco-nuclear movement became tainted was perhaps a speech by Margaret Thatcher to the UN general assembly which made the case in 1989, partly to undermine the coal industry as a trade union powerbase.

At any rate, here again is the argument: nuclear energy provides the clean, climate-friendly energy we need. Renewables such as wind and solar are important, but progress on them is desperately slow and time is running out. The risks of nuclear are real, but they are misunderstood and uncontextualised, safety measures have evolved and risk must in any case now be considered in the light of clear and present danger of the global harm from fossil fuels.

But none of this is easy. Generations have been brought up on the idea that nuclear equals apocalypse. Convincing them of the opposite is a challenge. Guardian readers will know that George Monbiot has ventilated ideas on this issue. The inevitable question is: what does Greta think? This film was apparently made too late to include Thunberg’s startling intervention in October 2022, when she claimed the German government was wrong to close down nuclear plants in favour of coal. Anything that stimulates discussion of this issue is to be welcomed.

Atomic Hope is released on 17 February in cinemas.

In California, many buildings remain vulnerable to earthquake damage

February 15, 20235:42 PM ET
Heard on All Things Considered

AILSA CHANGTwitter

Transcript

NPR's Ailsa Chang talks with LAist News reporter Jacob Margolis about how many buildings in California are still susceptible to earthquake damage.

AILSA CHANG, HOST:

After the devastating earthquakes in Turkey and Syria, many of the people who died or were severely injured were trapped under the rubble of collapsed buildings. A number of those structures were built a long time ago, and even some of the more recently built ones were not up to code - factors that experts say likely contributed to the soaring death toll. The disaster in Turkey and Syria has triggered concerns in other disaster-prone areas of the world, including here in the U.S.

Jacob Margolis is a reporter for LAist news, and he's here to tell us more about why California, especially, is on alert. Hey, Jacob.

JACOB MARGOLIS, BYLINE: Hey.

CHANG: OK. So before we talk about the problems facing us here in California, what is it about the construction of many of these buildings in Turkey and Syria that collapsed that experts think made those buildings especially vulnerable to earthquake damage?

MARGOLIS: Yeah. It seems that many of the buildings that collapsed were concrete structures that didn't have adequate reinforcement to help them deal with ground motions that were really extreme. We're talking a velocity of - I think it's about three feet a second, which is huge. It's still being investigated, but it will likely be found that some of the structures, they didn't have proper rebar or concrete or even wall-to-floor connections so that when the ground moved that violently, columns collapsed, and then there's nothing holding the big, heavy floors up. And then the rest of the building comes down following it.

Now, like, I want to note - and people should note - Turkey has building codes on par with California and Japan, according to different engineers that I've spoken with. So the question is, like, why did the buildings collapse? And that's all being sorted. I know there's a delegation of engineers heading over to do some assessments, including from the U.S., and we'll learn more once things settle down.

CHANG: Right. But do you have a sense right now of how common those structural vulnerabilities that you've described in concrete buildings in Turkey and Syria - how common those are in California buildings?

MARGOLIS: Yeah. We have a lot of concrete buildings here in California that we know could very well collapse in a big earthquake. Anyone who thinks it's not going to happen or that it couldn't happen is delusional. I mean, we have, for instance, in Los Angeles, a program that is specifically meant for a type of concrete building built prior to the late 1970s that is saying, hey, you need to retrofit these buildings. But the timeline is like 25-plus years probably. Just to put it in perspective, there's a 15% chance that we're going to get hit here in Southern California with a 7.8 magnitude or greater quake sometime in the next 30 years.

CHANG: Right.

MARGOLIS: And so we have a lower concentration of those types of concrete buildings here. And that's one thing that we actually have working for us is that we've got a lot of sprawl, especially here in Southern California, where I am - a lot of single-family, wood-frame homes. And those do pretty well in earthquakes, and they're much easier to retrofit than the big, concrete buildings as well.

CHANG: Well, if experts know that there are these deeply concerning structural weaknesses in so many buildings in California and we are expecting the so-called big one someday here in the state, why haven't these buildings been brought up to code? Like, why are they given so much time to get up to code? What are the challenges?

MARGOLIS: Yeah. So for bigger buildings, retrofits can be extremely expensive. They take a lot of time. And whether we demand those retrofits happen faster is kind of up to, you know, city officials and the public because they do take a lot of money as well.

CHANG: Yeah, a lot of money and a lot of time. Well then, I mean, practically speaking, for the average person, what are, like, next steps people can take if they live or work in a building that they think might not be structurally sound given everything that we've talked about? I mean, what can people actually do?

MARGOLIS: You know, find out if the building has been retrofitted here in Los Angeles. There's a website that you can search to tell you when it was built and if it has been retrofitted. For a lot of other cities, municipalities across the state, I don't think that's necessarily the case. So if it was built prior to the late-1970s and it's a concrete structure, just know that there is a possibility that it could come down in the next big quake.

CHANG: That is Jacob Margolis of LAist news. Thank you so much, Jacob.

MARGOLIS: Thank you.

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