'It's A Simple Yes Or No': Naga Munchetty Skewers Tory Minister Over Crumbling Schools
Kevin Schofield
Fri, 1 September 2023
Naga Munchetty grilled Nick Gibb on BBC Breakfast
A Tory minister was skewered by Naga Munchetty as he struggled to defend the government over the closure of unsafe schools just days before the end of the summer holidays.
More than 100 will have either partially or completely shut their doors to pupils because the concrete used to build them - known as RAAC - is at risk of collapse.
Schools minister Nick Gibb this morning admitted that some of the affected schools have yet to be contacted by the government, and that it is still not known how many will have to close completely.
Appearing on BBC Breakfast, Gibb was grilled on the government’s response to the crisis, which will see thousands of pupils forced to learn from home when the new term starts next week.
The minister insisted the government had been “very proactive in assessing the school estate” and had taken action as soon as the extent of the problem became apparent.
He said RACC was used between the 1950s and 1990s, and that surveys were sent to every school in England in 2022 asking whether it was present in their buildings.
But Munchetty told him: “I’m sorry, please let me interrupt. You’ve given me the history of RACC and the dangers known.
“In 2018 when there was a national audit report saying that it was in 572 schools, why did it take until 2022 until surveys were sent to schools?”
Gibb said “warning notices” had been sent to all schools after that report, but that further evidence had emerged since then about the dangers posed by the crumbling concrete.
He added: “You seem to be criticising us for being more proactive than other governments around the world.”
The minister said that prior to yesterday, the government had already taken action in 52 schools where RACC was identified.
Munchetty said: “Is it fair to say that they were unsafe up until that point - that children were attending schools with buildings unsafe?”
Gibb replied: “This evidence was emerging over time ...”
The presenter then interrupted to say: “It’s a simple yes or no, isn’t it? They were either safe or unsafe.”
The minister said: “Well we felt, having had that evidence, that parts of the school that had RACC that was in a criticial condition were not safe.”
“So they could have potentially collapsed?” Munchetty replied.
Gibb said: “Yes and that’s why we took action.”
Labour has accused the government of “staggering incompetence” in not taking action until just before schools return from the summer break.
Shadow education secretary Bridget Phillipson said: “Ministers have been content to let this chaos continue for far too long.”
Mike Short, head of education at the UNISON union, said the situation was “nothing short of a scandal”.
Teachers clear out classrooms after 104 schools in England told to shut
Parents told ‘don’t worry’ as school buildings with concrete prone to collapse ordered to shut immediately
Schools in England must immediately shut buildings made with a type of concrete that is prone to collapse, the government has announced.
Extra measures are set to be put in place, with some schools having to relocate children to other teaching spaces.
However Education Secretary Gillian Keegan has told parents ‘don’t worry’ over the closures.
She saidmost parents need not be worried at all – there are more than 20,000 schools in England, and just over 150 have RAAC present.
She said: ‘We are working to minimise this a much as possible. The priority for me is your children’s safety and that’s why we are taking these precautionary measures.’
Keegan says engineers have been combing school sites looking for RAAC and over the summer, ‘a couple of cases have given us cause for concern’.
She added: ‘We need to take the cautious approach.’
A ‘minority’ of the state facilities will need to ‘either fully or partially relocate’ to alternative accommodation while safety measures are installed, the Department for Education (DfE) said.
The department has contacted 104 settings that do not currently have mitigations in place to vacate spaces containing reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete (RAAC).
Unions and opposition parties criticised the Government for failing to take action sooner, as schools were being shuttered ahead of the return from the summer break.
Some 52 of the 156 educational settings containing the concrete have taken protective steps already this year.
Two schools in Bradford have already been partially closed on the eve of the new term after surveys found weak concrete in the buildings.
Pupils at Crossflatts Primary School and Eldwick Primary School will be moved to ‘safe’ areas, after the problem came to light.
Bradford Council said temporary classrooms would be set up in the coming weeks and months.
The council has carried out detailed surveys at 45 schools to determine whether reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete (RAAC) was used in their construction.
The lightweight material was used to construct many civic buildings from the 1950s to the 1990s, before being found to deteriorate over time.
It has an estimated lifespan of around 30 years.
Sue Lowndes, Bradford Council’s assistant director schools and learning, said: ‘We are putting plans in place for those two schools to make sure no one is put at risk and also to minimise any disruption to children’s education.
‘We know how important it is to make sure children can continue at school. Headteachers at the affected schools are working with parents and staff so we can keep them informed of the changes that are being put in place.’
Earlier this week a private prep school was fined £80,000 after a classroom ceiling collapsed on top of a group of seven and eight-year-old children.
Year 3 pupils at Rosemead Preparatory School in Dulwich, south London, were in the middle of a handwriting lesson when the roof caved in above their heads on November 15, 2021.
Several of the youngsters along with their teacher were taken to hospital with various injuries – including fractured limbs, cuts and concussion – when tables and chairs fell from the attic above.
Safety measures include propping up ceilings in buildings made with reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete (RAAC).
The Department for Education (DfE) has not given a timeline for replacing the RAAC, but school leaders have called for an ‘urgent plan’ to fix buildings.
A report in June assessed the risk of injury or death from a school building collapse as ‘very likely and critical’.
Paul Whiteman, the general secretary of the NAHT, the union representing school leaders told the Guardian: ‘NAHT has repeatedly raised concerns about these buildings for a long time now, so while this news is shocking, sadly it is not hugely surprising.
‘What we are seeing here are the very real consequences of a decade of swingeing cuts to spending on school buildings.
‘The government is right to put the safety of pupils and staff first – if the safety of buildings cannot be guaranteed, there is no choice but to close them so urgent building work can take place.
‘But there is no escaping the fact that the timing of this couldn’t be worse, with children due to return from the summer holidays next week.
‘This will put school leaders under tremendous pressure as they have to scramble to organise alternative accommodation.’
The Unison public service union’s head of education Mike Short said: ‘This situation is nothing short of a scandal.
‘The DfE and government have squandered valuable months hiding this crisis when they should have been fixing dangerous school buildings.
‘The schools minister even broke his own promise to publish information about at-risk properties before parliament’s summer recess.
‘Parents, pupils and staff will be relieved the issue is finally being taken seriously.
‘But to wait until the eleventh hour as schools are preparing for a new academic year will create turmoil for thousands of families. And this could just be the tip of the iceberg.’
Association of School and College Leaders policy director Julie McCulloch said the Government had been too slow to respond.
She said: ‘The danger of structural failure in school buildings where this type of concrete was used in construction has been known since at least 2018.
‘The Department for Education’s own annual report last year identified the condition of school buildings as one of six ‘significant risks’ it was managing, describing this risk as ‘critical – very likely’ and ‘worsening’.
‘It has taken the Government far too long to act on a risk of this seriousness.
‘The scramble now taking place to contact affected schools ahead of the imminent start of the new school year is clearly vital, but the actions these schools will need to take will be hugely disruptive, and this will obviously be worrying for pupils, families and staff.
‘The Government should have put in place a programme to identify and remediate this risk at a much earlier stage.’
Liberal Democrat education spokeswoman Munira Wilson said: ‘This shocking admission is a concrete result of years of Conservative neglect of our school buildings.
‘Parents, teachers and pupils will be horrified that children have been taught in unsafe buildings and cannot return to school next week.
‘Instead pupils face more misery learning in temporary classrooms or being bussed miles to local schools.
‘Pupil safety is paramount but for this to come out just days before term starts is totally unacceptable.
‘Liberal Democrats would invest in our schools urgently to remove RAAC where it is a risk to life and clear the backlog of school repairs.’
School trust chiefs warned the timing of the announcement ‘couldn’t be more disruptive’ and called on the Department for Education (DfE) to make sure its response was ‘as strong as possible’.
Confederation of School Trusts chief executive Leora Cruddas said: ‘This is a very serious situation and it couldn’t be more disruptive at the start of a new academic year.
‘However, children’s safety must come first so the government is right to proceed with caution.
‘It is absolutely imperative that the operational response from the DfE is as strong as possible and that this gets schools and trusts the help they need in this extremely challenging circumstances.’
How the Government Failed to Act on the Collapsing School Building Scandal
Ministers’ claims that the school building scandal only emerged ‘over the summer’ is contradicted by evidence of warnings going back years
Ministers claimed today that the collapsing school buildings issue only emerged as a serious problem in recent weeks. Education Minister Nick Gibbs told ITV this morning that “this is only an issue that emerged over the summer”.
However, this claim is refuted by a wealth of evidence, from local government to the National Audit Office, to one of the Government’s own agencies.
The problem actually first emerged five years ago when a school roof collapsed in Gravesend, Kent destroying the staff room and a computer room. No children were there when it happened.
The collapse alarmed Kent education authority who decided to alert all councils in England about the problem so everyone, including the Department for Education, were aware of the issue.
Then last September The Office for Government Property – which supports the government and the wider public sector to manage their estate more efficiently and effectively – issued a blunt warning about the dangers of aerated concrete to Whitehall.
It said: “RAAC[aerated concrete] is now life-expired and liable to collapse – this has already happened in two schools with little or no notice.”
The National Audit Office, Parliament’s financial watchdog, decided to launch a thorough investigation into how many schools were affected and how much money schools needed to put it and other schools right. They came up with the figures of £7 billion but the Treasury was only prepared to spend £3.1 billion on the problem.
The NAO report, published at the end of June, revealed that there were 572 schools built using aerated concrete and provided a map broken into London boroughs and English education authorities, showing how much money was needed to be spent in each authority to bring all buildings, including those with aerated concrete, up to scratch. The government would have known the NAO’s findings months before publication because it had to factually clear it with the Department for Education.
Only then did the Department start checking some of the schools to see if they were safe.
During the summer holidays two school buildings using aerated concrete collapsed, one bringing a beam down and it seems only then that ministers began to panic and take action to protect children.
Last night Gillian Keegan, the Education Secretary, suddenly announced that over 100 schools were going to be closed, or partially closed, and the pupils diverted to temporary accommodation or other schools just before term begins next week.
The issue is that the buildings were constructed with aerated concrete which is now life-expired and prone to collapse without any warning.
The ministry is refusing to release details of the two schools where the collapses occurred (including one last week) or to name the 104 schools being closed or partly closed. The ministry claimed that it didn’t want the media to overwhelm the schools concerned “saying it was up to the schools or the parents to make the information public”.
Despite this, information is leaking out with schools in Bradford, Leicester, Sheffield, Basingstoke, Brixton in south London, County Durham and a special school in Southend all facing closure or partial closure.
It also emerged on Thursday that seven of the hospitals being rebuilt or replaced also have aerated concrete problems and Harrow Crown Court has been closed for nine months to replace its aerated concrete roof.
Education Secretary, Gillian Keegan, said: “Nothing is more important than making sure children and staff are safe in schools and colleges, which is why we are acting on new evidence about RAAC now, ahead of the start of term.
“We must take a cautious approach because that is the right thing to do for both pupils and staff.
“The plan we have set out will minimise the impact on pupil learning and provide schools with the right funding and support they need to put mitigations in place to deal with RAAC”.
Labour plans to challenge the Government over the issue next week when parliament returns.
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