In Kolkata’s Red-Light Area, Women Talk About Abuse Versus Agency, Sex Work as a Choice

Durbar, a project started to protect sex workers in 1992, by being physically and spatially rooted in the Sonagachi brothel space, is a movement where the gaze is that of an insider, and a testament to lived realities.

Participants take part in a rally as part of the week-long sex workers' freedom festival 

at the Sonagachi red-light area in Kolkata July 24, 2012. Photo: Reuters/Files

LONG READ

Sanhati Banerjee

“In 1973, COYOTE – ‘Cast out your tired old ethics’ – emerged in San Francisco from WHO – ‘whores, housewives and others’. In the 1980s, the AIDS virus killed the connection between the prostitute rights groups and women’s organisations. Mainstream feminists now castigated prostitution as a form of patriarchal abuse against women. The image of the liberated whore was replaced by that of the oppressed prostitute who would be rescued by feminists.”

– Excerpted from Geetanjali Gangoli’s Immorality, Hurt or Choice: How Indian Feminists Engage With Prostitution

In a significant order, the Supreme Court has recognised sex work as a “profession”, whose practitioners are entitled to dignity and equal protection under the law.

However, not all has been hunky-dory ever since the judgment in the nuanced dynamics of sex work.

“While the Supreme Court directions are pro-sex work, there are several gaps. One of the major contradiction arises when on one hand, the court upheld the rights of adult and consenting sex workers, but on the other hand, the order makes the brothel illegal, rendering the conditions required to perform sex work ‘unconducive’. Do you expect sex workers to provide their services on the streets?” said Bishakha Laskar, president of the Kolkata-based Durbar Mahila Samanwaya Committee (DMSC), a collective of 65,000 sex workers (males, females and transgenders).

Even within the spectrum of female sex workers, there are diverse groups with varying experiences of “money, risk, and public visibility”, as Julia Webster wrote in her 2016 study, titled An Analysis of Opposing Feminist Views of Sex Work: Is it the woman’s choice? In Kolkata, West Bengal, India, published in SIT Digital Collections.

“Call girls and escorts work mainly in private premises and hotels where they charge high prices for their services. Then there are brothel-based workers who charge moderate prices and have moderate risk. This is the largest employer among women in the red-light districts… Lastly, there are street walkers, or “flying sex workers”, who are a high-risk community. They are seen as brothel-based workers because they are the most centralised group.”

As published in LiveLaw, “The court issued these directions in exercise of power under Article 142 of the Constitution of India accepting some recommendations made by a court-appointed panel on the rights of sex workers:

“…basic protection of human decency and dignity extends to sex workers and their children, who, bearing the brunt of social stigma attached to their work, are removed to the fringes of the society, deprived of their right to live with dignity and opportunities to provide the same to their children”, the court said.

One of the apex court directives mentions: “Whenever there is a raid on any brothel, since voluntary sex work is not illegal and only running the brothel is unlawful, the sex workers concerned should not be arrested or penalised or harassed or victimised.”


Laskar explained how the order leaves sex workers with no safe space or site to perform and practise sex work, even though the profession itself has been decriminalised. In an orthodox design of spatial structures, the site of sex work, an act which has been socially and systemically stigmatised, is itself a radical space. It challenges elite and casteist constructs of hygiene, purity and morality. It can potentially subvert boundaries between gentrified neighbourhoods and ghettos in urban areas.

“It takes some amount of time and persuasion to convince a client to wear a condom, which is not possible while hiding in some street in the dark of night or at some client’s home. A sex worker would be in a state of perpetual fear of locals finding them out and subjecting them to violence. In the midst of all the rush and panic, where’s the time to insist upon wearing condoms? This will only increase the risk of HIV and further push the profession into an underground activity,” she explained.

In her study, Webster wrote: “In the early 1990s, the worldwide AIDS/HIV awareness campaigns led many people to recognise the lack of safety for sex workers due to their marginalisation and exploitation within Indian society… One such programme was the Sonagachi Project in South Asia’s largest red-light district situated within the city of Kolkata. Started in 1992 to address the high rates of sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) and infections (STIs) in Sonagachi, the project soon became a sex worker’s movement.”

As stated in its website, DMSC, or Durbar, realised that sex workers can serve as the best agents of change to fight AIDS and they cannot play this role unless society recognises their professional rights and regards them as human beings. That is how Durbar became the first of its kind in Asia.


A lot has changed owing to Durbar’s sex work activism.

There are now 54 target intervention (TI) centres in West Bengal. Thirty-one-year-old Ratan Dolui, who works as a Durbar on-field counsellor to drive awareness about STDs and HIV, especially among girls and young women, in Sonagachi, says, “Through our TI outreach programme, we conduct regular blood tests and HIV screenings.”

Dolui, whose mother is a sex worker by profession, says that children of sex workers are important stakeholders in the activism of sex workers for their rights and recognition. Hence, communication between sex workers and their children and acceptance of the latter is crucial.

He has done research-based work for the UNCRC (the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child) on the lives of sex workers in the Bardhaman district.


Rooftop view of Sonagachhi, South Asia’s largest brothel situated in Kolkata. Around 17,000 sex workers live here. Credit: Tanmoy Bhaduri

Sex workers still face harassment, even after the SC order

Whether it is the government or the judiciary, which takes a stand on sex work, any such decision-making process should represent the voices of the community members, Laskar added.

In May, the Supreme Court directed that the police should treat sex workers with dignity and should not abuse them.

“However, police harassment has, in fact, doubled after the Supreme Court judgment,” he alleged.

“Instead of us, the officials now target our clients. Such an agenda only hurts our interest. At the same time, police personnel now increasingly threaten us with the prospect of slapping Immoral Traffic (Prevention) Act (ITPA) cases,” said Putul Singh, Durbar’s secretary.

“We work for ourselves; to secure our future. Why would we make any such move which would jeopardise our lives and livelihoods, and for which we have to face legal consequences? Even if we tell the police repeatedly that there’s nothing, they still break into our rooms and forcefully break open the locks on our almirahs as the real motive is to take our money and whatever possessions that we might have. Uninformed district-wise raids have increased leading to greater harassment,” she said.

Durbar’s self regulatory board (SRB) is a community-led structure which deals with anti-trafficking activities in 30 sex work sites throughout West Bengal. It works towards removing criminal activities surrounding sex trade and stopping the entry of minor and unwilling trafficked girls into sex trade.

Webster also wrote in her 2016 study that “Durbar has deeply influenced the history of sex work and the sex work debate within Kolkata.”

Liberation versus oppression, victimhood versus choice, abuse versus agency – these binaries further limit women’s economic agency, control over sexual interactions as well as ideas of freedom and fun within contradictory forces. Whereas in reality, experiences of female sex workers are much more diverse, nuanced and intersectional.

Webster explained this her study, saying: “Historically, the oppression paradigm has dominated thought on sex work. It says that sex work is a result of patriarchal gender relations, which results in exploitation, subjugation and violence. By using this language, victimisation becomes intrinsic to the sex worker and their agency is disregarded. It recognises violence against women as inherent to sex work. It is also strongly based in moralism and affirms the social stigmatisation of sexuality.”

This also largely informs the anti-sex trafficking movement and literature.

“The empowerment paradigm qualifies sex work as work that involves human agency. Sex work, therefore, is not inherently negative as it can benefit women in improving socio-economic status and providing for more control over the conditions of their jobs. There is agreement that oppression happens when sex work manifests in a way that is criminalised. Feminist scholar Meena Seshu calls for the “third paradigm”, which “is sensitive to complexities and to structural conditions shaping the uneven distribution of agency, subordination, and job satisfaction,” she explained in the 2016 study.

“Our fight is not only for ourselves; we believe in the self-determination rights of all marginalised communities,” Laskar added.

Also read: Sex Workers Need to Be Seen as Labour, Not Victims

More independent than a housewife, entertainers by choice

Originally from the Sunderbans, Laskar, 46, has been working for the rights of sex workers for the past 30 years. She said that she is a sex worker by “consent”.

Back in the 1990s, when she was a teenager, she had come to Kolkata to work for an ‘upper caste’ lawyer as a domestic help, a move that made her a part of the informal labour economy. However, as the lawyer sexually harassed her, she soon realised that being a poor woman with not much education would make the fight for justice difficult. She would be easily shamed and thrown out of the powerful ‘upper caste’ premises.

“Why should I not charge and allow my body to be exploited? This is a service, which provides me with an income, has empowered me, and enabled me to provide for my parents, which might be difficult for a lot of married women, given patriarchal power structures,” she said.

Laskar and others told this author that they view sex work as an honest means of earning income and caring for their children. Rehabilitation should be offered to those women who are in their advanced years and might attract a lesser number of clients and if they so wish. “Durbar will never say no to that. But why impose rehabilitation as a morally better standard and especially to younger women who want to earn through sex work as a choice? Is this not against our will?”

The assumption that all sex workers need to be rescued runs the risk of axing female autonomy and agency through the patriarchal axiom that women cannot decide for themselves. Shaping the lexicon of sex work as corrupting and inherently violent runs the risk of subscribing to the notion that sex, when manifesting as paid work, destabilises notions of desire, body and sexuality embedded in popular romantic culture.

Sex workers stand on a roadside pavement in a red-light area. Photo: Reuters/Punit Paranjpe/File

Will society accept sex workers back into its hegemonic folds, to the workplace and traditional family set-ups?

“A sex worker doesn’t murder or hurt anyone. What exactly is the problem? We are entertainers like cinema artists; we provide entertainment as a service. It’s more than sex, it’s play-acting with songs, dances and costumes, like drama aimed at providing pleasure and mental satisfaction. Recognition of our work will embolden our right to say no to societal oppression,” Laskar said.

Older women in the profession are often said to be constrained by a limited shelf life? “But that is true for several other professions as well. However, it is true that our profession places a premium on youth and beauty. Hence, there’s a need for savings for every woman. If we spend all our earnings on our lovers/babus, we end up with nothing at the time of retirement,” she added.

In 2014, USHA Cooperative won an award for the best-run cooperative in West Bengal. It provides banking facilities to nearly 23,000 sex workers.

“We have more agency than a housewife/homemaker, who continues to provide unpaid domestic labour throughout her life. We don’t need to ask our husband before purchasing saris or gifts,” she said.

“We also have the right to dream, the right to own shops, land, a home, and educate our children. And sex workers are more independent in that sphere,” she added.

Also read: Ground Report: How Kolkata’s Public Spaces Respond to Sex Workers

Citizenship, community and Durga Puja

Commenting on parties exploiting sex workers as “vote-bank”, Durbar’s secretary Putul Singh said, “We have always had the right to vote; however, we never got our recognition. Every election, candidates from all parties come to our doors seeking votes. But we should only vote for those who are committed to lending solidarity to our fight for equal labour rights and dignity. But why are our demands not represented in election manifestos?”

It is through their own grassroots activism that some of Kolkata’s sex workers have been able to arrange documents for proof of citizenship, right from voter and Aadhaar to ration cards.

The women-centric schemes that the Mamata Banerjee-led Trinamool Congress (TMC) government runs do not exclude sex workers. “So, those among us who have the requisite documents can avail the benefits [of the schemes],” Singh added.

During the COVID-19 pandemic-induced lockdown, Durbar along with others and local sympathisers arranged ration for the sex worker community with or without the documents.

However, Singh was outraged at the fact that several NGOs and activists from the “outside”, distributing cooked food among 300 odd members or so for a few days, demanded photo-ops for publicity. Sex workers would have to dress up and dab some dark shade of lipstick: “Are we exotic zoo creatures?”

There was a time when Durga Puja pandals would not allow entry to sex workers even though, according to traditional beliefs, the soil would be begged and received from a sex worker’s hand as a gift and blessing, and hence, referred to as punya mati or the sacred soil, as explained in a 2019 News18 article, Why Soil from Brothels is Used to Make Goddess Durga’s Idols.

This also ensued a battlefield wherein brothel residents had to fight for their rightful representation against the exclusionary practice meted out to sex workers in the “best instance of the public performance of religion and art”, which made it to the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation (UNESCO) Intangible Cultural Heritage list this year.

“We stood firm on our ground that we wouldn’t give mati from jouno polli (also referred to as nishiddho polli or forbidden lanes in Bangla) until and unless we and our children were given our rights to enter the pandals and be part of the celebrations. We stood up against this hypocrisy and stigma until in 2013, when the Calcutta high court delivered a verdict in our favour, giving us the permission to hold our first ever community Durga Puja, the Sonagachi Durga Puja,” Singh said.

After performing the Puja for the next couple of years inside the office premises, they were barred from coming out in the open and celebrating outside the premises.

Ironically, right outside the premises, the so-called civil society members would host a Ganesh Puja, while sex workers residing inside the brothels weren’t allowed to claim their space and exercise social visibility.

Since 2017, the Sonagachi Puja has been taking place in the open with brothel-based workers making ceremonial offerings or proshad. “This is a platform for all; everyone is invited. We don’t discriminate; it gives us joy when everyone comes to take part in the feast,” Singh said.

Now, in a nod to increase social representation of marginalised communities, Sonagachi sex workers are invited to pandals across the city for inauguration as well as the finale act of shindur khela (vermillion game), which has historically been a bastion of married and ‘upper caste’ Hindu women.

Have you seen the Alia Bhatt-starrer Gangubai Kathiawadi? “Yes, Durbar identifies a lot with the politics shown in the film. There is pain and oppression in our stories, but whenever someone writes about sex workers, why does it have to be through the lens of victimhood laced with emotions? This isn’t emotional. This is about our rights and resistance,” she said.

This is not to deny the nexus of violence a sex worker is subjugated to. As written on the Durbar website: “Often perpetrators of violence are the local hooligans in and around the red-light district who extort money and threaten sex workers with consequences. Even the malkins (landladies) and house owners often indulge in violence against sex workers. Babus (lovers) of sex workers are equally responsible for a heightened number of incidences of violence against them and their children.”

Durbar, in essence, by being physically and spatially rooted in the Sonagachi brothel space, is a movement where the gaze is that of an insider, and a testament to lived realities.

Sex workers stand on a roadside pavement in a red light area in Mumbai 

Reuters/Punit Paranjpe/

Also read: In Photos | God’s Wife, Every Man’s Woman: The Lives of ‘Joginis’ in South India

Abeda Bibi’s stance on identity and solidarity

Abeda Bibi, Durbar’s treasurer, who is originally from Nadia district, discovered Sonagachi at the age of 19. “I was married and five months pregnant when I was abandoned by my husband. I come from a low-income group and once I started working as a domestic help, I soon realised how I was vulnerable to being preyed upon by men,” Bibi said.

“The biggest challenge for me was to explain to my mother and father that I worked in ‘Line bari’, a term used to refer to the brothel residences. The second turning point came when I took the decision to explain it to my child. For me, it was paramount to tell him it that is through sex work that I have provided for your food, clothes and education, saved money for your wedding. Are you ashamed of me?” she said.

She said that the biggest gift of Dr. Smarajit Jana – the founder-mentor of Durbar – was to introduce them to the word songothon (organisation), the collective power of resistance and shared solidarity. He urged sex workers to get together and stand up for each other when the goons inflicted violence or the landlord/landlady resorted to exploitation.

They formed a collective of sorts with Rs 5 membership cards, culminating with the registration of Durbar in 1995. Bit by bit, members amassed the strength to hurl bottles, bricks and stones back at those who assaulted them.


“There was a time when policemen would not even allow us to sit on the floor. Today, at least, they address us with dignity and entertain our complaints,” she added.

She recalled how the members would initially keep their children with mashis/madams during work. Later, makeshift creche facilities were developed in the field clinics. “Earlier, a slur (beshya) would be used to describe children born to sex workers. Earlier, it was mandatory to provide the identity of the father of the child, and we would make our babus (clients) pose as temporary fathers. Now the mother’s name is enough for documentation and admission to schools. This validation of our identity is part of a fierce struggle to make our identity mainstream,” she said.

Children of sex workers have been taking forward the mantle and legacy of their mothers’ arts through Durbar’s cultural wing, Komal Gandhar. “Just like a patient visits a doctor for a physical or mental need, a client comes to us to satisfy his sexual need. We specialise in the art of entertainment, she said.

However, the living conditions for sex workers continue to be stark and congested. Often, 10 rooms are shared by 50 women. The residential space in Baruipur, Rahul Vidya Niketan, was founded to provide formal and non-formal education to children of sex workers. Bibi stresses on the need to further bring their rights to education, healthcare and social dignity to mainstream attention.

“Sex work has enabled women like us to break out of systemic structures of gendered and caste oppression within the informal labour economy and exercise autonomy outside of the moral conventions of the heteronormative marriage and family system,” she said.

As she says this, one is reminded that marital rape is still not a crime in India. The courts would still like to hold on to “archaic notions” of the sanctity of marriage. A Scroll article, titled Explainer: Why is marital rape not a crime in India – and can the courts make it one?, explained how “sexual intercourse or sexual acts by a man with his own wife” wouldn’t constitute rape.

Also read: Six Themes That Supreme Court Touched Upon in Verdict on Right to Legal Abortion

“Why can’t our narrative be that of the working women, why insist on ‘othering’ the sex worker?” Singh added.

Durbar’s on-field counsellor Dolui added, “The identity of the mother as a sex worker isn’t about shame and stigma. All the shame is in the mind. These are social constructs. For me, my mother is a real human being with her own struggles and wishes. There is nothing to hide.”

At the end of her study, Webster found some directions to some of her questions like whether sex work is a respectable profession or forced labour?

“Abolitionists perpetuate stigma. Stigma perpetuates violence. Pro-sex work works within the patriarchal structure. The patriarchal structure promotes inherent violence against women…”

Whatever stand intersectional feminism takes on the potential of empowerment in decriminalising sex work, the day at Durbar was a reminder of how deconstructing women’s bodies through the narratives of capitalist-consumerist versus the chaste domestic goddess is rooted in prejudice and privilege. While the strand of subversion cannot be used to erase the trauma of trafficking, the latter cannot be posited as an overarching value, dehumanising the diversity of voices.

At Durbar, I met members who were bold, articulate, assertive and sensitised, not deserving of pity but demanding of respect. It is perhaps time to liberate marginalised bodies and entities from the trap of “tired old ethics”.

This story is part of the UNFPA Laadli Media Fellowship 2022.

DIPLOMACY

Russian, US Violations of International Law Leave India Tongue-Tied

While India abstained during the voting of a draft resolution condemning Moscow for annexing Ukrainian territory, it also has not reacted to the latest US unilateral sanctions on an Indian firm and a national for trading with Iran.


Representative image of a UNSC meeting at the United Nations Headquarters in New York City, February 25, 2022. Photo: Reuters/Carlo Allegri

The Wire Staff

New Delhi: In the last 48 hours, India has kept silent on key violations of international law by Russia and the United States, opting not to condemn the Russian annexation of Ukrainian territory and the US imposition of extra-territorial economic sanctions on Indian entities for trading with Iran

At the UN Security Council on Friday, September 30, India abstained during the voting of a draft resolution – rejected due to a veto by Russia – that sought to condemn Moscow for holding referendums and then annexing four Ukrainian regions where Russian speakers are in a majority. India’s explanation of vote did not even mention the referendums that were conducted by Russia as the military occupier.

Sponsored by the US and Albania, the draft UNSC resolution garnered four abstentions from India, China, Brazil and Gabon. Ten votes were in favour, but the draft was not adopted as Russia wielded its veto.

This is likely the 12th time that India has abstained in voting on a draft resolution or a procedural matter related to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine at a major UN body since February 24.

India’s short explanation of vote only noted that New Delhi was “deeply disturbed by the recent turn of developments in Ukraine”, but made no direct reference to either the Russian president’s annexation announcement or the referendums organised in Luhansk, Donetsk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia under the supervision of the Russian military occupation of those regions.

“Escalation of rhetoric or tensions is in no one’s interest. It is important that pathways are found for a return to the negotiating table. Keeping in view the totality of the evolving situation, India has decided to abstain on this resolution,” said India’s permanent representative to the UN, Ruchira Kamboj.

Ukraine has rejected the annexation – and Russia’s offer of talks – saying negotiations with Moscow will not be possible as long as Vladimir Putin remains president.

Kambhoj also brought up Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s statement to the Russian president that ‘this was not an era of war’. “We, therefore, sincerely hope for an early resumption of peace talks to bring about an immediate ceasefire and resolution of the conflict.”

Also read: Why India’s Implicit Support to Russia on Ukraine War Is a Strategic Blunder

Stating that India’s position has been consistent from the start of the conflict, she reiterated, “The global order is anchored on the principles of the UN Charter, international law and respect for sovereignty and the territorial integrity of all states.”

On September 21, Russia had announced its intent to partially mobilise its military reserves and hold referendums in the Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk, and Zaporizhzhia regions.

Following the announcement, Albania and the US had requested an urgent UNSC meeting to discuss the latest developments in Ukraine.

At the September 27 meeting as well, India had not mentioned the referendums. Neither did India condemn the Russian invasion of Ukraine, in line with its public position since February 24. Besides India, China, Gabon and the UAE had also not condemned the referendums at the UNSC meeting.

On the same day, the initial draft of the resolution was circulated by the US and Albania.

Russia had proposed several amendments, but they were not added in general to the text.

During the negotiations, the draft was diluted to remove mention of Chapter VII of the UN charter.

Three days later, the draft resolution was tabled, which saw a slight change in the position by the UAE and Brazil.

While Brazil had stated earlier that “it is unreasonable to assume that populations in areas in conflict can freely express their will”, the Brazilian representative said on Friday that its abstention was based on the grounds that the resolution would not “contribute to resolving the conflict”.

The UAE’s permanent representative to the UN, Lana Zaki Nusseibeh, said that her delegation had voted in favour of the text, but would have liked more time for the engagement on the language.

The final draft stated that the referendums that took place between September 23 and 27 were not valid. It had also called on the member states and international organisations not to recognise Russia’s annexation of the Ukrainian territories.

Russia was also asked to immediately withdraw all its military forces from Ukraine within its internationally recognised borders.

According to the Security Council Report, several references to Crimea and language describing the referendums as “shams” were omitted and revised.

China abstained from the resolution, but raised concerns about “a prolonged and expanded crisis” in Ukraine.

The Chinese envoy, Zhang Jun, argued that while “the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all countries should be safeguarded,” countries’ “legitimate security concerns” should also be taken seriously. Beijing had abstained from voting on resolutions in the UNSC and UNGA on several occasions that condemned Russia’s Ukraine invasion.

More than six years ago, Russia had also vetoed a draft resolution that declared the invalidity of the referendum organised in Crimea before its annexation. After the UNSC’s failure, the United Nations General Assembly (UNGA) passed a resolution against the Crimea referendum on March 27, 2014, with 100 votes in favour, 11 against and 58 abstentions.

India was not a non-permanent member of the UNSC in 2014. But it had abstained during the voting in the UNGA. Back then as well, India did not give any explanation for its vote.

Similarly, the action will now shift to the UNGA. “We are moving to the General Assembly where every country has a vote. In the General Assembly, the nations of the world will say loud and clear: It is illegal, and simply unacceptable, to attempt to redraw another country’s borders through force,” said US permanent representative to the UN, Linda Thomas-Greenfield, on Friday.

Also read: ‘Consistent With India’s Position on Ukraine’: Jaishankar on PM Modi’s Comments to Putin

India silent on the US sanctions on Indian firms

A day before the UNSC met to decide on the US-sponsored resolution, the US imposed sanctions on several companies, including an India-based petrochemical company, for facilitating financial transfers and shipping of Iranian petroleum and petrochemical products.

In a statement, the Department of Treasury said these entities had played a critical role in concealing the origin of the Iranian shipments and enabling two sanctioned Iranian brokers, Triliance Petrochemical Co. Ltd. (Triliance) and Persian Gulf Petrochemical Industry Commercial Co. (PGPICC).

According to the list, an India-based petrochemical company, Tibalaji Petrochem Private Limited, had purchased millions of dollars worth of Triliance-brokered petrochemical products, including methanol and base oil, for onward shipment to China. Earlier in June, a Ratnagiri-resident, Mohammad Shaheed Ruknuddin Bhore, was also sanctioned for being a broker for Triliance.

The UN has not imposed any sanctions on Iranian energy exports and Indian law also does not proscribe trade with Islamic Republic.

So far, India has not reacted to the imposition of US extra-territorial sanctions on an Indian firm or an Indian national. This is even though there is widespread consensus among legal scholars that unilateral sanctions are illegal under international law.

In a 2022 paper published in the Journal of Conflict and Security Law, a law professor at the University of Exeter, Julia Schmidt, observed, “extra-territorial sanctions contained in the US sanctions regimes against Iran and Cuba are … in violation of the law on sanctions..”

The database of the US treasury department’s Office of Asset Control shows that 22 individuals and entities, with Indian addresses, have been sanctioned. Till now, nearly all of them had been listed under anti-terror and anti-drug sanctions by the US. Besides, sanctions were also imposed on a North Korean government’s IT firm that opened an office in India and two Iranian firms with addresses in Mumbai.

It has been a long-standing position of India to oppose extra-territorial unilateral sanctions. This was also reiterated by Ministry of External Affairs spokesperson Arindam Bagchi in April after US and EU had started to impose sanctions against Russia.

“Look, I don’t think our position on sanctions has changed one bit. We have always stood by the UN sanctions,” he had said on April 28.

The latest Shanghai Cooperation Organisation joint statement, which has India as a signatory, also criticised the imposition of unilateral sanctions. “They stressed that unilateral application of economic sanctions other than those adopted by the UNSC is inconsistent with the principles of international law and adversely affects third countries and international economic relations,” said the Samarkand Declaration dated September 16.

Creator's Stone meteorite to be returned to its historic site after over 150 years

Friday

EDMONTON — After years of negotiations, the Alberta government signed an agreement Friday with a First Nations group committing to return an ancient meteorite to its historic location after being displaced for over 150 years.


Creator's Stone meteorite to be returned to its historic site after over 150 years© Provided by The Canadian Press

Manitou Asinîy, also known as the Creator's Stone or Manitou Stone, is a 145-kilogram iron meteorite that landed close to the Alberta-Saskatchewan boundary, near modern-day Hardisty, Alta., billions of years ago.

The chestnut-coloured stone weighs about the same as a red-tailed deer and is the size of a large tire.

The stone holds spiritual significance to Indigenous people across the Prairies and was thought to have healing properties and protect buffalo herds.

The stone was taken in the late 1860s by Rev. George McDougall, who attempted to use it as a way to draw Indigenous people to Christianity. FOUNDER MCDOUGALL ANGLICAN CHURCH IN EDMONTON

It was then sent to the Victoria Methodist College in Ontario.

When the stone was taken by McDougall, Indigenous spiritual leaders prophesized illness and famine that soon came to fruition with the introduction of smallpox and the mass killing of buffalo herds by colonizers.

The Royal Ontario Museum displayed the stone until 1972 when it was placed on long-term loan with the Royal Alberta Museum in Edmonton.

Consultations between the museum and Indigenous groups about the fate of the stone started in 2002.

Elder Leonard Bastien said the return of the stone is important to reawakening a sense of peace, prosperity, hope and healing for all people.

"It is my hope, my faith and belief that tomorrow will be better for us," he said.

Bastien is chair of the Manitou Asinîy-Iniskim-Tsa Xani Center, the group that engaged with several Indigenous communities and elders to build consensus around the future of the stone.

At the ceremony, Premier Jason Kenney spoke of his first time learning about the stone in a history book several years ago.

"It does not and should not belong to the government of Alberta," said Kenney. "It does, and must belong, to the First Nations of these lands."

Kenney said returning the stone marks a deeply meaningful moment of reconciliation.

Bastien praised Kenney for his actions to repatriate the stone. "You moved mountains for us."

A geodesic dome designed by Indigenous architect Douglas Cardinal will be the stone's new home and serve as a prayer centre. The structure will be built over the next couple of years and will cost between $7.5 million and $10 million.

Blaine Favel, former chief of Poundmaker Cree Nation in Saskatchewan, said they are in the process of final land negotiations and that funding has started to come in from corporate donors.

Favel said that the prayer centre will help preserve culture and traditions for future generations.

The Royal Alberta Museum will continue to house and take care of the stone until the centre is built.

Hardisty, Alta., is about 200 kilometres southeast of Edmonton.

This report by The Canadian Press was first published Sept. 30, 2022.

___

This story was produced with the financial assistance of the Meta and Canadian Press News Fellowship.

Angela Amato, The Canadian Press

An American citizen killed in Iran strikes on Iraqi Kurdistan: US

Posted on September 30, 2022 by Editorial Staff in Kurdistan, Security

WASHINGTON,— The United States said Thursday that one of its citizens was killed in Iranian strikes on Iraqi Kurdistan as it separately announced fresh enforcement of sanctions on Tehran’s oil sales.

Iran’s clerical state on Thursday carried out cross-border strikes, with 13 reported dead, amid unrest at home sparked by the death in custody of an Iranian Kurdish woman by the notorious morality police.

“We can confirm that a US citizen was killed as a result of a rocket attack in the Iraqi Kurdistan region” on Thursday, State Department spokesman Vedant Patel said.

Citing privacy laws, he declined further details. But he reiterated US denunciations of the strikes.

“We continue to condemn Iran’s violations of Iraq’s sovereignty and territorial integrity,” Patel told reporters.

Asked if there would be retaliation, Patel said the United States has “a number of tools and a number of lines of efforts to continue to hold Iran accountable for its destabilizing actions in the region.”

The United States has imposed sanctions on the morality police — accused by protesters of killing in custody 22-year-old Kurdish woman Mahsa (Jina) Amini after she violated the Islamic republic’s strict rules on women’s dress — and has worked to support restoration of internet access inside Iran.

The unrest following Amini’s death on September 16, which has killed dozens, came as President Joe Biden’s administration negotiates indirectly through the European Union on returning to a 2015 nuclear deal scrapped by his predecessor Donald Trump.

If Tehran agrees to the terms for returning to compliance with the deal, known formally as the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, the United States would lift its unilateral ban on other nations buying Iranian oil.

The Biden administration made clear Thursday it was enforcing sanctions for now, announcing punitive measures over Iranian oil trading of companies in China, India and the United Arab Emirates as well as Iran.

“As Iran continues to accelerate its nuclear program in violation of the JCPOA, we will continue to accelerate our enforcement of sanctions on Iran’s petroleum and petrochemical sales under authorities that would be removed under the JCPOA,” Secretary of State Antony Blinken said in a statement.

Copyright © 2022, respective author or news agency, Ekurd.net | AFP

Iran Unleashes Terror Against Kurdistan

Posted on September 29, 2022 by Editorial Staff 

Smoke billows following an Iranian cross-border attack on Kurdish opposition groups in the area of Zargwez, Sulaimani prvince, Iraqi Kurdistan on September 28, 2022. Photo: AFP
Marcel Cartier | Exclusive to Ekurd.net

What started as a calm Wednesday morning in the Kurdistan Region of Iraq soon turned into a terrifying ordeal. Missiles rained down on numerous sites across the region starting mid-morning, with drones still circling endlessly as night fell.

By the time it was over – at least for night’s reprieve – the death toll stood at 13, including a pregnant woman whose baby miraculously survived.

The Kurdistan Region has been under attack seemingly without end – most often from Turkey. However, Wednesday’s bloodbath was the handiwork of the battered Islamic Republic of Iran, the theocratic entity embroiled in a mass, popular uprising for nearly two weeks.

Ah yes, Iran. The state that proclaims itself to be so vehemently against oppression that it wants to show itself to be the staunchest defender of the Palestinian people – and yet, Wednesday’s scenes could have been from Gaza. In fact, even the rationale behind the attacks was couched in the same language the Israelis always use, that of fighting “terrorism”.

In this case, though, the “terrorists” were not the Palestinians, but the Kurds. It has been no coincidence that the wave of protests that has hit Iran has been centered on the Kurdistan province and other largely Kurdish inhabited areas.


Syrian Kurdish women hold up portraits of Iranian Mahsa (Jina) Amini, during a protest condemning her death in Iran, in the main Kurdish city of Qamishlo, Syrian Kurdistan (Rojava), September 26, 2022. Photo: ANHA via Ap

The death on September 26th of Mahsa Amini is a case in point about the Kurds’ horrific fate at the hands of the Iranian state. Amini was certainly killed for being a woman, the victim of the “morality police” that enforces the state’s patriarchal rule. She also very well may have also been a target for being a Kurd. Even the way she is known globally exemplifies the national oppression in the country, being that her real name was not Mahsa, but Jhina. That name was not approved by the chauvinist Iranian authorities, so Mahsa is how she was officially registered.

In the days leading up to the bombardment in the Kurdistan Region of Iraq – a blatant violation of its territorial integrity and sovereignty – Jhina’s cousin Erfan Mortazee began to speak out her fate. His appearance made it clear he was no passive bystander. Dressed in military fatigues, Erfan was not speaking from inside Iran, but from Iraq, a member of the Komala Kurdistan Organization of the Communist Party of Iran. Like many, the heinous conditions of life for Kurds in Iran had forced him to pick up a gun and become a Peshmerga fighter for his nation’s liberation.

The Communist Party’s branch of Komala was just one of several Kurdish groups exiled in northern Iraq that came under attack on Wednesday morning. The Komala Party of Iranian Kurdistan reported that its primary base was all but leveled. I found the images distressing, given that I had visited the camp last year, and knowing that it housed more than just Peshmerga fighters, but also families who had found refuge and solace across the border. Here they could breathe freer as Kurds, as well as Iranians.


Kawsar Fattahi (L), a member of Komala’s Central Committee, with Siamak Modarresi, the Deputy Secretary General of Komala Party of Iranian Kurdistan, 2021. Photo Marcel Cartier/via Ekurd.net

Kawsar Fattahi, a member of Komala’s Central Committee, told me that about ten suicide drones targeted the camp starting at around 10:15 in the morning, but that this wasn’t the first attack in recent days. “It has been happening for a few days already. They attacked the border area of Sidakan because our Peshmergas are there. This is related to Amini’s death because the regime is under great pressure. They need to make people scared and for the world to forget the protests.”

At the same time, she made it clear that Iran has been looking to attack Komala for some time, using as a pretext the allegations that the group was looking to wage terrorist attacks inside Iran after the arrest of four of its members in late July. In typical Islamic Republic fashion, they were painted as Israeli Mossad agents in order to brandish them not as a homegrown force, but as foreign meddlers.

“After they made this claim, Iran already said it would attack our camps. We were ready for it because this is not the first time,” Fattahi said.


Iran strikes KDPI bases in Koya, Iraqi Kurdistan, September 28, 2022. Photo: Rudaw TV

For other Iranian Kurdish groups in northern Iraq, this also wasn’t the first time that missiles rained down on them. The oldest of the exiled parties, the Democratic Party of Iranian Kurdistan (PDKI), reported scenes of chaos and panic at their headquarters in the town of Koya on Wednesday. It was here that one of its pregnant Peshmerga members succumbed to her injuries, but her baby survived.

In September 2018, Iran had also launched missiles against the camp and an adjacent refugee center, killing 18 and injuring at least 50. Like Komala, many had also carved out some semblance of a relatively free life here, creating more than simply a military barracks, but also schools and a genuine sense of community.

Kurdish PJAK/HPG guerrilla. Photo: HPG

Attacks also targeted the bases of the Kurdistan Freedom Party (PAK) and the Party for a Free Life (PJAK), the group that is associated with the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) which has waged a more than forty-year insurgency against the Turkish state. Many of these organisations cooperate with one another, while others have less cordial relations. However, according to the Iranian state, what unites them as the enemy is their Kurdishness.

Iran’s deadly attacks on Kurdistan may appear to show strength, but it may be more apt to see them in terms of desperation. It is no coincidence that it’s suffering Kurdish masses – on either side of the border – who are viewed by the clerical regime the greatest threat to its continued existence. Rebellion has always been etched into the mountains of these lands.

For those such as Komala’s Fattahi, the fight is against the double oppression that took Jhina Amini’s life – that of being a Kurd and of being a woman. Even after a day of destruction, Fattahi ended off in conversation on the most optimistic note possible, saying bluntly and confidently “the end of the regime is near.”

Marcel Cartier is an American hip-hop artist, journalist, filmmaker, writer, and political commentator based in Germany. He has reported on Kurdish nationalism and recording the experiences of anti-ISIS fighters belonging to the YPG and YPJ militias during the Rojava–Islamist conflict. His first book Serkeftin became one of the first major accounts by an English-speaking journalist to gain access to the civil structures created by Kurdish militants in Rojava. You can follow him on Twitter @Cartier_Marcel.

The opinions are those of the writer and do not necessarily represent the views of Ekurd.net or its editors.

Copyright © 2022 Ekurd.net. All rights reserved

END THE ATTACKS

IRAN FRONT PAGE

IRGC carries out fresh attacks against terrorists in Iraq’s Kurdistan region

By IFP Editorial Staff
October 2, 2022


Iran’s Islamic Revolution Guards Corps has once again targeted terrorists’ bases in Iraq’s semi-autonomous Kurdistan region with artillery and rocket attacks.

The strikes that took place on Saturday hit positions of separatist terrorists, the IRGC said.

Over the past days, the force has conducted several operations against the terrorists in the northern Iraqi region, using ballistic missiles, suicide drones and artillery.

Earlier, commander of the IRGC’s ground force Brigadier General Mohammad Pakpour said 73 ballistic missiles and dozens of drones were deployed to hit and completely destory the positions of the terrorists with pinpoint accuracy.

Pakpour also said the operations will continue until the anti-Iran separatist groupings in Kurdistan semi-autonomous region are fully disarmed.

The IRGC first started the attacks last week amid some operations by the terrorists to destabilize western Iranian cities that share a border with Iraq’s Kurdistan region.

IRAN FRONT PAGE
Intelligence Ministry reveals role of West, Israel, Saudis in deadly Iran unrest

By IFP Editorial Staff

October 1, 2022


The Iranian Intelligence Ministry sheds light on the role of Western states, spearheaded by the US, and their regional allies, including the Israeli regime and Saudi Arabia, in fanning the flames of deadly violence in the Islamic Republic, announcing the arrest of groups of mercenaries advancing their agenda on the ground inside Iran.

In a statement, the ministry said while the country’s law enforcement units were busy responding to unrest in several Iranian cities for days, intelligence forces focused their mission mainly on identifying the masterminds operating behind the scenes, including foreign governments and foreign-sponsored counter-revolutionary terror groups such as the Albania-based Mujahedin-e-Khalq Organization (MKO).

Over the past days, when “hidden seditionist layers” had stepped up their activities, the chances increased for intelligence forces to identify the terrorists and the elements behind acts of sabotage, the ministry added.

It added that Iranian security forces had to face elements related to certain grouplets, those tied to foreign spy services, deceived rioters on the streets, and direct intervention of the US and UK governments and the Saudis.

The ministry listed its arrests.

Among them were 49 individuals tied to the MKO, who had a hand in fabricating false news, presence in riots and giving directions to the slogans chanted during the gatherings, acts of vandalism, providing rioters with equipment and explosives for confronting the police and setting fire to public places and property.

It said 77 members of separatist groups in Kurdistan, including official mercenaries of the Zionist regime such as the so-called Komala Party. Such grouplets were active on both sides of the country’s western borders and were hatching plots against the Kurdish people.

One of the individuals, the statement added, had received training in a US-Zionist base in Iraq’s semi-autonomous Kurdistan region and was arrested in a surprise intelligence operation.

Meanwhile, five Takfiri terrorists were detained and a large cache of weapons were confiscated from them. They were planning bomb attacks and an assassination operation against a senior authority.

The statement said five members of the Baha’ei cult, who took orders from a base in the Israeli-occupied city of Haifa, were also identified and arrested.

Among those detained were also 92 monarchists and loyalists to the ex-Pahlavi regime as well as 9 foreign nationals, including citizens of Germany, Poland, Italy, the Netherlands, France and Sweden, who were present on the scenes of riots.
Intelligence forces also arrested 28 people with criminal backgrounds.

It also said huge caches of arms had also been confiscated from the terrorists.

Terrorists also planned bomb attacks on two passenger planes and sensitive industrial sites. The plots were, however, thwarted, it added.

Over the past months, it added, some Western and Israeli spy services had given training to their elements for operating against the Islamic establishment and bringing about regime change in Iran.

It said warnings had been issued to the foreign embassies whose personnel had “even the slightest” presence in the violent riots, including those of Germany, the UK and Sweden.

END THE DEATH PENALTY

“We Don’t Care About Y’All”: Incarcerated People in Hurricane Ian’s Path Not Evacuated, Live in Fear

SEPTEMBER 29, 2022


GUESTSAngel D'Angelo
member of Restorative Justice Coalition and Fight Toxic Prisons.

LINKS

Restorative Justice Coalition

Fight Toxic Prisons

Image Credit: Facebook: @FightToxicPrisons

As millions of Florida residents in the path of Hurricane Ian were ordered to evacuate, advocates pushed authorities to also evacuate what they say are as many as 176,000 people incarcerated in prisons, jails and immigrant detention centers. Now the storm has left millions without power and many without water. “We’re worried about the conditions in the days and weeks following, with no AC, lack of sanitation and water, lack of food, lack of appropriate staff and access to health,” says Angel D’Angelo, a member of Restorative Justice Coalition and Fight Toxic Prisons.

Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.


AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org. I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh.

As millions of Florida residents in the path of Hurricane Ian were ordered to evacuate, advocates pushed authorities also evacuate of over what they say are as many as 176,000 prisoners. That’s right, people incarcerated in prisons, jails, immigrant detention centers. Some prisoners saw their units evacuated. Others were put on lockdown with minimal staff. The Lee County Sheriff’s Office said they declined to evacuate people from the 457-bed Fort Myers Jail, even though the county map shows the jail is in the mandatory evacuation zone. This morning on Good Morning America, the Lee County sheriff confirmed fatalities were in the hundreds in the region.

When Hurricane Ida devastated southern Louisiana last year, many people were in prisons and jails that did not evacuate. In the weeks following the storm, they faced limited access to drinking water, food, electricity and medicine. Many also remember how people held in the Orleans Parish Prison, after Hurricane Katrina struck New Orleans in 2005, were deserted in their locked cells as sewage-tainted water rose up to their chests.

For more, we’re joined in Tampa by Angel D’Angelo. He is with the Restorative Justice Coalition, as well as the Campaign to Fight Toxic Prisons.

Welcome to Democracy Now!, Angel. Just tell us what you’ve learned, I mean, and this latest news out of Lee County, that they refused to evacuate the jail, even though it was in the evacuation zone.

ANGEL D’ANGELO: Good morning, and thank you for having us here.

We’re very, very concerned about the conditions in Lee County, as well as throughout the entire zone of where Ian has landed. We haven’t gotten full updates on the status of people who are incarcerated, but we know from — as you mentioned earlier, from past incidences that jails, prisons, immigration centers and juvenile halls can be dangerous places during storms, especially with long-term power outages. So, it’s not just the windfall we’re worried about. We’re worried about the conditions in the days and weeks following, with no AC, lack of sanitation and water, lack of food, lack of appropriate staff and access to health.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: And yesterday, Angel, the Florida Department of Corrections issued a press release outlining some of the safety measures they’ve put in place, saying approximately 2,500 inmates had been evacuated. Could you, please, put that in context, how many inmates there are in Florida — we mentioned a little in our introduction — in prisons, in jails and in detention centers? Two thousand five hundred have been evacuated.

ANGEL D’ANGELO: I don’t know the number offhand, including all of the jails, prisons, federal jails, state levels, juvenile centers and in immigration centers, but I know that Florida is a large state as far as our mass incarceration. The United States, of course, being the holder of 25% of inmates in the world, Florida being one of the top in the United States, so the amount that they’ve evacuated certainly doesn’t scratch the surface.

I know there’s been some evacuations. For example, in Hillsborough County, Florida, we have two jails. And thanks to the Campaign to Fight Toxic Prisons, they evacuated individuals from Orient Road Jail and moved them to Falkenburg Jail, which at least is not in an evacuation zone. So, that’s one example of an evacuation that did happen, completely, to removing all inmates from that jail to prioritize their safety. And we’re not sure why Lee County and Charlotte County, who were in danger zones, did not take those actions.

AMY GOODMAN: So, talk about what authorities say when you demand that these prisons be evacuated. Where do they get evacuated to?

ANGEL D’ANGELO: Absolutely. So, in Charlotte County, for example, a member of Fight Toxic Prisons contacted Charlotte County Jail, as one example, and was told that the jail itself serves as a shelter and that the building is sturdy. And we hear “the building is sturdy” as quite a common line from prison and jail authorities.

And whether or not that’s true — I mean, it may even be true — it’s not just the windfall that we’re worried about, or the sturdiness of the building, but rather the after-effects for a group of forgotten people who really no one’s checking on. We’ve heard stories of flooding, for example, during Hurricane Michael in 2018. Florida prisons in the Panhandle had roof damage, floods, shortages of staff and access to healthcare. So it’s not just about what’s happening during the windfall, but the days and sometimes weeks after the storm. So, the authorities also, on top of that, to consider — the authorities are also considering risking the lives of their own paid staff, as well as the people who are forced to stay there during incarceration.

AMY GOODMAN: Just to give some numbers, Florida has the third greatest number of prisoners. California is — Texas is number one, with close to 136,000. California is two, with more than 97,000 prisoners. And Florida is number three, with over 81,000 prisoners. And this is from 2020. As you say, the issues are also issues like contamination of water and everything inside the prisons. Are you speaking to people inside? Do you have access? One of the biggest problems now is people having access, let alone prisoners having access to outside world at a time like this.

ANGEL D’ANGELO: Yes, actually, that is a huge concern, obviously, around the clock, but especially during an emergency. A member of Fight Toxic Prisons did speak with someone who was incarcerated who had some concerns. I also can tell you that I spoke personally with someone in Pasco County Jail. Pasco is not necessarily in a serious threat area, but, of course, all of Florida was under a state of emergency.

My friend in Pasco County Jail has been subject to abuse for the last several weeks and forced into solitary confinement for unrelated reasons, finally was able to call me after two weeks of no contact, and barely even seemed aware that there was a storm, certainly was not aware of the intensity of the storm. When I asked questions about, you know, of course, his situation in general, I had to throw in about the storm. And he said that he felt that the building was safe as far as the exterior, but he identified to me that he has not heard about any extra safety protocols, and even said to me that a correctional office told him, “We don’t care about y’all in here.”

AMY GOODMAN: Well, Angel D’Angelo, we thank you for bringing attention to this very critical issue, and we will continue to cover it. Angel is with the Restorative Justice Coalition, as well as the Fight Toxic Prisons group. He’s speaking to us from Tampa, Florida.

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“Reality of Global Warming”: Hurricane Ian’s Power Shows How Climate Change Supercharges Storms

STORY SEPTEMBER 29, 2022


GUESTS

Seán Kinane
news and public affairs director at community radio station WMNF in Tampa, Florida.

Harold Wanless
professor in geography and urban sustainability at the University of Miami.

LINKS Seán Kinane on Twitter

WMNF
Image Credit: TMX / @Chad71777859 / WEATHER TRAKER

Authorities say hundreds may be dead after Hurricane Ian made landfall Wednesday along Florida’s southwestern coast as a powerful Category 4 storm, one of the strongest hurricanes ever to hit the continental United States. We get an update from Tampa and look at links between the climate crisis, rising sea levels and intensifying storms. “It’s just been devastating, and we don’t know the full extent of the damage yet,” reports Seán Kinane, WMNF news and public affairs director. “We are seeing these storms that aren’t otherwise stressed just exploding in intensity,” says Harold Wanless, professor in geography and urban sustainability at the University of Miami.

Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.


AMY GOODMAN: We begin today’s show in Florida, where authorities say hundreds may be dead after Hurricane Ian made landfall Wednesday along the state’s southwestern coast as a powerful Category 4 storm, one of the strongest hurricanes ever to hit the area. Ian was about 500 miles wide when it crashed into Florida with a 30-foot-wide eye wall and hurricane-force winds that extended 40 miles from the center. Satellite images show the storm engulfing the entire state. High winds and storm surges devastated coastal communities. Some storm surges were 12 feet high. Some cities saw more than a foot of rainfall. More than two-and-a-half million have lost power as we broadcast. Many are also without water. Rescue teams are working in the dangerous conditions to find people trapped in their homes.

Earlier this morning, the sheriff of Lee County, Florida, Carmine Marceno, spoke by phone to ABC’s Good Morning America.


SHERIFF CARMINE MARCENO: While I don’t have confirmed numbers, I definitely know the fatalities are in the hundreds. There are thousands of people that are waiting to be rescued. And again, cannot give a true assessment until we’re actually on scene assessing each scene, and we can’t access people. That’s the problem.


GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS: Fatalities in the hundreds?


SHERIFF CARMINE MARCENO: So far, confirmed in the hundreds, meaning that we are responding to events, drownings. And again, unsure of the exact details, because we are just starting to scratch the surface on this assessment. We’re doing everything that we possibly can. Again, now it’s to protect and preserve lives, and we are in full force doing that.

AMY GOODMAN: That’s Lee County, Florida, Sheriff Carmine Marceno being interviewed by George Stephanopoulos on ABC’s Good Morning America.

Hurricane Ian has now weakened to a tropical storm, is dumping torrential rains as it heads toward Georgia, Virginia, North Carolina and South Carolina, after leaving a path of catastrophic damage.

For more, we go to Tampa, Florida, for an update from Seán Kinane, news and public affairs director at community radio station WMNF.

Seán, you are hunkered down there at WMNF. Your building is built to withstand a Category 5 storm. I have visited it repeatedly. It was in the track of Ian originally, but ultimately the storm hit south of you. You’re staying there, because you live on an island where you could not go back. Welcome back to Democracy Now! Give us the latest as you serve the community with information.

SEÁN KINANE: Thank you, Amy.

Yes, in Tampa, I am in a building that can withstand a Category 5 hurricane, but, lucky for the people of the Tampa Bay area, that’s not what struck here. We were — we were spared.

But the most important story right now is what’s happening down in Southwest Florida, as you heard from the sheriff of Lee County, where hundreds of people are confirmed dead from this storm, with the unbelievable storm surge that came through, several feet of water in major cities in Southwest Florida, like Naples and Fort Myers. It’s just been devastating. And we don’t know the full extent of the damage yet, because it’s just now daylight, and it’s just now safe enough, perhaps, to go outside for people and for these emergency crews to go out and assess the damages.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: Seán, could you talk a little bit more about where these fatalities — if there’s been any talk of where the most facilities occurred, and also if there’s any word on when power might be restored, two-and-a-half million people now without electricity?

SEÁN KINANE: Yeah, so, I don’t know that much first-hand about the fatalities. All I know is what I’m hearing from the Lee County sheriff. And just to give people a perspective of where that is, that’s — the largest city in Lee County is Fort Myers. And that’s right where the storm came ashore. There’s two barrier islands that it struck, Captiva and Sanibel, on the way in, and also Cayo Costa. So, it struck these barrier islands first and went ashore in Lee County. So, there is, of course, going to be the most casualties there, perhaps, but there’s been very strong rains and storm surges all along the coast, from Naples all the way up to almost to Sarasota, so perhaps there could be some there. I don’t have any knowledge about that. But now we’re also worried about river flooding inland. And, you know, some of these rivers are going to be flooding for days and days from now because of how much rain has been accumulating upstream.

AMY GOODMAN: I want to bring in Dr. Harold Wanless. And, Seán, I’m going to ask you to stay with us. I hope you don’t have to get off since you’re on the air constantly. But Dr. Harold Wanless is a professor of geography and urban sustainability. Hurricane Ian is the 121st hurricane to hit Florida since 1851, which has faced more hurricanes than any other state, millions of residents living along its coastlines. The storm first hit Cuba as a Category 1 storm, before it intensified to Category 4, near 5, when it made landfall in Florida. So we want to talk more about the rapid intensification of these storms and the sea level rise that’s already occurred along Florida and how that’s affecting the storm’s impact.

We go to Coral Gables, where we’re joined by Dr. Harold Wanless, a professor in geography and urban sustainability at the University of Miami. He is on the board of directors of The CLEO Institute, a nonprofit dedicated to climate crisis education and advocacy.

So, you’re in Coral Gables. If you can talk about everything you’re seeing in Florida now and where the climate or global heating plays such a key role?

HAROLD WANLESS: Well, thank you for having me, Amy.

Yes, one of the things we’ve been seeing, and it certainly was true with Ian, is that when the wind shear is down, the water is warm, and the ocean water is getting much warmer because of climate change, we are seeing these storms that aren’t otherwise stressed just exploding in intensity. And this was forecast by the hurricane folk, and it’s exactly what’s happening again and again. And we watched this one as it left Cuba just explode into this Category 4 storm. And that is in large part because of the warming ocean. And the Caribbean Sea in the southern Gulf of Mexico was extremely warm for this time of year, and that really drove it.

The other thing that we’ve seen with many storms, maybe only a little bit with this one, is that the steering currents tend to be weaker, so they tend to slow down and hang around, where — the one that hit Houston a few years ago was a good example of that. And they end up just maybe not being a windstorm at the end, but dumping huge amounts of rain. And that sort of happened here. We slowed down as we moved on to Florida, and the rain around Orlando and south has been — will be catastrophic.

One thing about this storm is, the places that were really hit were these very low barrier islands of Sanibel and Captiva and Cayo Costa. These are extremely low and vulnerable. We haven’t really heard much of anything from them yet, and they got the main onshore surge. We saw pictures yesterday about — of Naples, with the water coming in, and on Marco, which were well south of the main push. And we saw some of Fort Myers Beach. But those outer barrier islands were just right in the path of the big eye wall onshore surge, and that’s going to be a huge problem for those islands. It’s going to be tragic when we see the evidence of what’s happened there.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: And could you elaborate? I mean, even though Hurricane Ian was downgraded to a tropical storm, what do you expect to unfold in the next few days in the worst-hit areas in Florida?

HAROLD WANLESS: Well, and it’s not just Florida anymore. There’s a state of emergency on up the coast, all the way to Virginia now, and because it’s exiting Florida now with 65-mile-an-hour winds still. So it’s prime, [inaudible] over the Gulf Stream, which is, again, warm water — it’s prime to just reform as some level of hurricane. And then it will — you know, it’s just drawing in huge amounts of moisture. So, that’s going to be extreme.

The problem with all the rain we’ve had in Florida — and I don’t know the final numbers for the middle of the state, but we’re only — most of the state is less than 100 feet in elevation. A little bit is higher inland, though. And so, there’s really no big slope for the water to pour off of, which means you’re not going to have these catastrophic floods coming out of intense floods out of the rivers. But the water is going to stay flooding for days and days and days in many of these intense rainfall areas. So, that’s a second whammy.

And as this water is draining back into the Fort Myers area from the rivers there, it’s going to make it slower for even the storm surge to come back down. This was a fairly — it had an angle where the storm was moving up the coast rather than straight into it, and that meant that the storm surge could move, push in for hours and hours. And we saw that yesterday. When Andrew hit Miami-Dade County in '92, the storm surge probably lasted about 10 or 15 minutes. It was a fast-moving storm, moving straight in. And so it was in and out, and that's it. But this was a huge penetration of a storm surge.

AMY GOODMAN: Dr. Wanless, at this time, when everyone is paying attention — you know, and you can only imagine what Pakistan is like, when you have a third of the entire country underwater. This is a very close-up look at what this feels like here in the United States. But this time when everyone is paying attention, it seems it’s critical to talk about precisely what you’re talking about: how global heating plays a role in this. And yet you have, like, the director of the National Weather Service saying on CNN, you know, you can never predict if a hurricane is caused by climate change, any one particular hurricane. While that may be true, the bigger point he’s making is: Who knows if it’s the climate crisis? You make a very different point, especially when you’re talking about sea level rise.

HAROLD WANLESS: Well, and because of changing speed of the Gulf Stream, all around South Florida — we’re on the left side of the Gulf Stream in the Florida current — we’ve had, since 1930, about a foot of sea level rise. So, an equivalent storm 90 years ago would have been dealing with a land that was a foot more out of water.

So, it’s not that climate change may be something that will happen. We have warmed the ocean. That is putting more moisture into the atmosphere. We have expanded the ocean because of this warming, and that has raised sea level rise. We are melting ice from Greenland and Antarctica at an accelerating pace. That is going to, in the next few decades, make quite dramatic influence on our present sea level rise, very dramatic change. And all these things are playing a role.

The other thing, when you just want to talk about all the rain, whether it’s a hurricane or just rain storms or even snow storms on land, as the atmosphere warms, it holds more moisture as water vapor, and as it moves on — over the ocean. As it moves on land and cools down, it makes these heavier rains that we’re seeing more and more of, and even heavier snowfalls during the winter. And so, this increase in severe flooding is not just along the coast from hurricanes, but it’s also from storms where the atmosphere has moved from the ocean, water-laden, onto through the land and is creating these intense precipitation events that are causing many of the floods we’ve seen in the last few years. These are increasing.

All these are realities. Everything I’ve said is a reality of global warming, because we have put more carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. You were just talking about the importance of methane, too, another powerful greenhouse gas. So, these things are increasing everything, from a warming atmosphere to a warming ocean to a melting of ice to increasing precipitation over land. And —

NERMEEN SHAIKH: And given that, how much has development along these coastal areas changed to make buildings more secure and able to withstand the effects of these increasing number of extreme weather events?

AMY GOODMAN: And should there be so much development?

HAROLD WANLESS: Well, you could ask, “Should there be so many people?” I guess, along with that. But, you know, there are four times the number of people as when I was born in 1942 on Earth? That’s amazing.

And we’re expanding out into places. Most of our new development on barrier islands is places that we felt were too low or too vulnerable or too narrow. And now if people want to live there, that’s what’s left. And there’s so many examples where you look at it, and you say, “That looks very risky.” But we’re doing it. And we do it with houses, and then suddenly they turn into high-rise condominiums that are also extremely vulnerable. And as sea level rises, and the shore wants to retreat landward, those are going to be left out in the ocean. And that will happen soon. You know, within the next few decades, we’re really going to see that.

Orrin Pilkey at Duke says, for every foot of sea level rise on a coast like the Gulf or the Atlantic, we should have 1,000 to 2,000 feet of landward retreat up the coast, as the ocean and available beach sand reequilibrate. And, you know, we’ve just had this rise of sea level, and we’re now trying to equilibrate with that. But we’re having more rise in the future because of accelerating ice melt.

AMY GOODMAN: Dr. Harold Wanless, we want to thank you for being with us, professor in geography and urban sustainability at the University of Miami. Seán Kinane, this is what you do every day at WMNF in Tampa, bringing out this kind of information. Your final comments as you live and broadcast from the station right now in the midst of the storm?

SEÁN KINANE: Yeah. So, Amy, what I would say to Dr. Wanless’s point about the barrier islands and how dangerous it is for people to be building there and to be living there, just to give an example, the Sanibel Island Causeway, the Sanibel Causeway, was completely wiped away in this storm. We’ve seen pictures of this bridge. This is the only road from the mainland to Sanibel Island and Captiva Island. It’s been wiped away. So, how do you get rescue supplies to these people? How do people evacuate if they didn’t evacuate already? And, you know, this is just a very powerful storm, and we really don’t know what to expect next, as cleanup crews are just now going out to look at things.

And to answer Nermeen’s question from earlier — she was asking when will power be restored to these people. We don’t know, but we did hear from Duke Energy Florida, who said that they have to wait until the wind dies down in order to go out and restore the power to these people. That might be this afternoon in Pinellas County, which is near St. Petersburg, which is what they said. But who knows how long that is in Orlando or in Cocoa Beach or places where the wind is still howling?

AMY GOODMAN: Well, Seán Kinane, we want to thank you for being with us, news and public affairs director at community radio station WMNF in Tampa, Florida.

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Noam Chomsky & Vijay Prashad: A Lula Victory in Brazil Could Help Save the Planet

SEPTEMBER 30, 2022

GUESTS

Noam Chomsky
world-renowned political dissident, linguist and author.

Vijay Prashad
author and director of the Tricontinental: Institute for Social Research.

Noam Chomsky joins us from Brazil with Vijay Prashad, just back from Brazil, to discuss Sunday’s Brazilian election between Brazil’s far-right President Jair Bolsonaro and former President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva. Chomsky and Prashad are co-authors of the new book, “The Withdrawal: Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, and the Fragility of U.S. Power.”

Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.

AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González.

In Brazil, voters head to the polls Sunday for an election that could see far-right President Jair Bolsonaro replaced by former President Luis Inácio Lula da Silva. Polls show Lula has a strong lead over Bolsonaro, but it remains unclear if he has enough support to win the 11-way race outright. If not, Brazil will hold a runoff election on October 30th.

Lula has been running on a platform to reduce inequality, preserve the Amazon rainforest and protect Brazil’s Indigenous communities. There’s widespread fear in Brazil that Bolsonaro could attempt to stage a coup if he loses the election.

We’re joined right now by two guests, by Vijay Prashad, who’s just back from Brazil. He’s joining us from here in New York. He’s just back from Brazil. And with us from Minas Gerais, Brazil, is Noam Chomsky, world-renowned political dissident, linguist and author, laureate professor in the Department of Linguistics at the University of Arizona and professor emeritus at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MIT, where he taught for more than half a century.

We welcome you both to Democracy Now! Noam, let’s begin with you in Brazil. Can you talk about the significance of this election that is going to take place on Sunday, and what this means for not only Brazil, but for the world?

NOAM CHOMSKY: It is very significant — not only for Brazil, but for the world — in Brazil, in many respects, but one of them is what you mentioned: the fate of the Amazon. Most of the Amazon region is in Brazil. Of the two candidates, one of them, the current president, Bolsonaro, is basically committed to destroying the Amazon. Under his years in office, there’s been sharp acceleration with his approval of illegal logging, mining, agribusiness, tax on the Indigenous reserves. It’s been known for some time that, sooner or later, if destruction of the forest continues, there won’t be enough moisture produced to reproduce the Amazon. It’ll turn to savanna. Regrettably, that’s beginning to happen. Satellite and other studies have shown that in corners of the Amazon in Brazil, it’s already happening. Tipping points may be coming soon, which would be irreversible It’s a catastrophe for Brazil, but, in fact, for the entire world. The Amazon forests are one of the major carbon sinks, and it will be — soon become a carbon producer. That’s devastating for the world. And those are Bolsonaro’s policies. So, for that reason alone, if he manages somehow to maintain power, perhaps by a military coup, it will be a disaster for the world.

Now, you might point out that there’s a counterpart coming in the United States. The Republican Party, of course, is a 100% denialist party committed to maximizing the use of fossil fuels, eliminating the regulations that somehow mitigate their effects. If they come back into power again, hurtling towards disaster. So, for those reasons alone, the next couple of months are of extreme significance.

There are many other factors. The business community in Brazil doesn’t like Bolsonaro. He’s too vulgar and corrupt. But they like Lula even less, because of his social democratic policies. So where they’ll stand is not so clear. Also unclear is the nature of the military, the police, the various branches of the police. They tend to be quite supportive of Bolsonaro. The military is split. There’s been a heavy military component in his government — unprecedented, in fact — but other elements of the top military command have been ambiguous about their status. So, that’s naturally a reason for concern.

Bolsonaro has said openly and clearly that — basically following Trump’s line, probably with Trump’s advisers at his elbow, saying that either he will win the election, or the election was fraudulent, that he won’t accept it. In fact, he called all of the ambassadors to a special meeting to tell them that, which shocked the diplomatic community and did lead to negative responses. Whether he’ll keep to that or not, nobody really knows. So, there is a kind of background tension in the atmosphere.

But I should say that from the little that we can see on the streets, in the community, it looks pretty normal. So, if there are concerns, they’re not very openly expressed. There are — last night, there was a major debate, went on for hours. There’s demonstrations and so on. So, the whole matter is very much in people’s minds, clearly. But if the polls are anywhere near accurate, Lula might win on the first round, but almost certainly would on the second. But then there’s the open question of how Bolsonaro and the forces behind him would react to this. That’s pretty much the current situation.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, Noam Chomsky, following up on that, the significance politically for Latin America and the world of a Lula victory, given the fact that we’ve seen now Latin America go from the early pink tide of the early 2000s, then there was a resurgence of right-wing government and lawfare actions throughout the region, and now we’re seeing almost every major country in Latin America voting in left-wing governments — Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela, Argentina, Peru? And Brazil, of course, is the largest country. This is a region with no nuclear weapons, with no major armed conflicts in the region right now. What would Lula coming to victory mean for the consolidation of this left-wing trend in Latin America?

NOAM CHOMSKY: Yes, you can add Chile to the list. Brazil is, of course, the largest, most important country in South and Latin America. And the direction in which Brazil goes is sure to have a major impact on these tendencies that you describe. Of course, they’re bitterly opposed by most of the business world, by the international investment community. What happens in Brazil could be certain to have a large-scale effect on whether this mildly left social democratic tendency will continue to develop and evolve.

That’s very important on the international scene, as well. It will, for example, affect the character of BRICS — Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa, now Indonesia — developing independent, possibly independent, force in global affairs. During the early years of the century, when Lula was in power, he managed to give the BRICS alignment a significant role in world affairs. In fact, Brazil became perhaps the most respected country internationally under Lula and his foreign minister, Celso Amorim. And if he returns to office, that could give an impetus to the development — the further development of BRICS as a quite significant element in international affairs.

That’s connected with much broader tendencies, much broader issues about multipolarity and unipolarity in international affairs. The United States, of course, is working hard to maintain what’s called a unilateral world order. Other elements in the world, other components in the world are not going along with that. Ukraine is a central part of that issue. About 90% of the countries of the world are not going along with the U.S.-U.K. position on Ukraine, which is basically to continue the war to weaken Russia and no negotiations. Even in Europe, like in Germany, that’s not accepted. About over three-quarters of the German population wants to move to negotiations now. All of these things are taking place in the background, and what’s happening in Brazil will have a significant impact on the direction in which they go.

So there are many large issues at stake, also just domestically in Brazil. Brazil has extraordinary inequality, kind of like the United States in that respect. An enormous amount — it’s potentially a very rich country. A century ago, it was called the “Colossus of the South.” It’s never been realized, partly because of the avarice of the wealthy sector, which has basically no commitment to the country. And that will move in one or the other direction, depending on the outcome of this election. So there is quite a lot at stake, locally in Brazil, in Latin America altogether, as you mentioned, and even globally, because of the role of the Latin American countries traditionally in the lead in setting the stage for the next phase of global order.

AMY GOODMAN: Noam Chomsky, on the issue of Bolsonaro perhaps not accepting election results — and he is in charge of the elections now as president — earlier in the campaign, he said, “Only God will remove me [from power]. … The army is on our side. It’s an army that doesn’t accept corruption, doesn’t accept fraud.” Are you concerned that he will not accept the election? And also, how much has Trump and his rejection of the elections and spreading the big lie influenced Bolsonaro, empowered him?

NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, Trump is his ideal. And there’s good reason to suppose that Trump’s circle of advisers is playing a role in Bolsonaro’s current decision making, as they pretty clearly did in the 2018 election, which he managed to win, but on reasons we don’t have time to go through. So, he might try to follow the Trump model.

His statement about “only God can remove him” is a Trump-like appeal to a large sector of his voting base. A large sector of his voting base is evangelicals, right-wing Christian groups, much as in the United States and Trump. So, references to God are obligatory. And charges that the PT, Lula’s party, will undermine the church, all of these charges which we’re familiar with in the United States, are part of the Bolsonaro campaigning.

What he’ll do, we don’t know. Now, a large majority of the population in Brazil, according to the polls, is concerned, seriously concerned, that there might be violence at the time of the elections or in the aftermath. To this concern, there’s reason for it. The alliance with the Republican Party, the Trump-owned Republican Party, is pretty clear. It’s not hidden. So there are similarities in the United States and Brazil that are certainly worth — merit attention.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Vijay Prashad, I’d like to bring you into the discussion here on Brazil. You were there recently. Your assessment of the importance of this election? And also, to what degree is the electorate voting for Lula and the Workers’ Party, or predominantly for Lula? There have been some reports that his popularity is much greater than that of the Workers’ Party because of all of the years of corruption scandals that occurred while the party was in power. I’m wondering your views on those two things.

VIJAY PRASHAD: It’s great to be with you. And it’s great to have Noam from São Paulo — from Minas Gerais.

The first thing I’d like to say is Lulu is an extraordinary person, an extraordinary campaigner, an extraordinary politician. You know, these things matter. I covered Lula’s first election campaign when he first won in the 2000s, was in Brazil during his second presidency, and covered this year some of his rallies and public appearances, and also had the opportunity to briefly speak with him. He is an extraordinary person. He’s extraordinarily charismatic, touches the hearts of people. This is what I suppose in the United States is called retail politics.

Also, Lula is this time running to the left of Lula the president. He’s made it very clear that questions of social justice will be at the forefront of his presidency. He’s made it clear that he once again wants to have Brazil be an important player in the process of South American integration and in the revival of the BRICS.

Now, it’s really important that we concentrate on the attempts to undermine Lula. It’s the military, of course, but got to pay attention to the fact, as Juan said earlier, this issue of lawfare is on the table. One of the things I learned in talking to Fernando Haddad, who ran for president in 2018 and is now running to be the governor of São Paulo state — what Haddad told me is that the key issue in this election is, yes, to elect Lula, but also to get an impeachment-proof majority in the legislature, because what happened to President Dilma Rousseff is on the minds of everybody. You can win an election, you can push an agenda, but you will get removed by a legislature which is committed to a very right-wing politics. And to somehow drive a impeachment-proof legislature is important. And that’s where the assessment about the Workers’ Party comes in. Is the party going to be strong enough to elect its candidates across the country? Or will it again rely merely on winning the presidency? So, that first issue of winning in the legislature is key.

You know, when Lula comes to office this time, he has already pledged to start a conversation about, for instance, a Latin American currency called the sur. This was tried previously under Hugo Chávez, called the sucre. But the sur, if Brazil puts its considerable resources behind it, it’s going to be a really important development for Latin America.

And, you know, we need to understand that, as Noam said, the mood in the world is contrary to being pushed around by the United States or its allies. People are looking for some other kind of leadership. And the respect that Lula has, which the other leaders, let’s say, in the BRICS countries don’t have, that respect that Lula has — Lula is the first Brazilian president whose name is known in other countries in the Global South. He’s going to leverage that respect to drive a multilateral agenda in world affairs. I think that’s going to be of great significance and importance. Again, when he came to power in the 2000s, the mood was not like that around the world. Now we see the mood, in South Africa, even in India, governed by a right-wing government. The government has said, “Look, we are not going to involve ourself in Europe’s wars. We have our own problems. We have our own conflicts.” And I believe that a presidency from Lula, a revival of the BRICS will allow some of that mood to be captured by somebody who comes to world affairs with a great deal of legitimacy and love and, in a sense, respect.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Vijay, following up on that, the issue of a greater, more multilateral world, that you mentioned, one of the things that’s happened in Latin America in the recent decades is the increasing visibility and investment of China throughout Latin America, allowing many of these governments, whether of the right or the left, to be more independent of financing and loans and investment from the U.S. and Europe. I’m wondering your sense of, again, if a Lula victory, what would happen in terms of this trend of China getting more involved in Latin America’s economies.

VIJAY PRASHAD: Well, it’s important to say that even during the presidency of Jair Bolsonaro, China continued to be a major trading partner with Brazil. And Mr. Bolsonaro was very careful not to come out with any kind of frontal attack on China. Let’s be quite clear that the arrival of Chinese commercial, economic ties with most countries in Latin America is inevitable. It’s clear. You know, there’s a reason why a country like Argentina joined China’s Belt and Road Initiative. That’s because the Chinese have investment capital available. The Chinese have a large market for the commodities produced in Latin America. In a way, China is offering much more to these countries in terms of trade, development, investment and so on than the United States. That’s just a fact.

The question is that in the last period, from Trump onward, the United States has attempted to tell countries in Latin America that they should stop trading with China. This is what happened with El Salvador, for instance, over a deal for a Pacific port. The United States tried to impose on the government of El Salvador — and, in fact, succeeded — to break a deal with the Chinese. Interesting thing is, China is not telling anybody to break deals with the United States. In fact, Argentina, a Belt and Road partner, went back to the IMF this year — a very poor deal, by the way, and it’s a deal that requires far more scrutiny, once more austerity on the Argentinian people.

But Lula has made it clear they’re going to continue, in that sense, Bolsonaro’s policy of trading with China, but there’ll be a kind of friendlier attitude to China. And I’m very much hopeful that if there’s a revitalization of the BRICS, this attempt to demonize countries in Eurasia, particularly China, will find less of an audience than it finds even now. It’s quite unfortunate that the United States has ramped up a kind of demonization policy, suggesting that, you know, the Chinese are out there to steal people’s privacy and so on. This is not a credible line of argument in countries where the Chinese have come, put money on the table through the People’s Bank of China, done currency swaps and so on, and said, “You don’t need to do austerity. Here’s investment money.” It’s not credible when the United States comes there and says, you know, “China is here to steal your house.” That’s not a credible argument. But it does create a lot of instability. It creates a lot of tension for countries.

And I think if Lula comes to power — or, not just Lula. We see this already with Gustavo Petro in Colombia. You know, when people come to power of that ilk, who want an independent foreign policy for their country, they understand that next year, 2023, is the 200th anniversary of the Monroe Doctrine. They want to go beyond the Monroe Doctrine. You’ll remember, Joe Biden said that Latin America is not the United States’ backyard; it’s the United States’ front yard. For God’s sake, President Biden, Latin America is nobody’s yard. These are sovereign countries that must be permitted to produce their own relations, whether it’s for trade or political relations. The United States cannot continue to essentially, as Noam says, be the godfather and tell countries what to do.

AMY GOODMAN: We’re talking to Vijay Prashad and Noam Chomsky. They have written a book together. It’s called The Withdrawal: Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, and the Fragility of U.S. Power.

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