AMERIKA
"Cry 'Havoc!', and let slip the dogs of war."
‘Death, chaos, civil war’: Furious Trump supporters out for blood after conviction
Ex-US president’s supporters flood social media with all-out threats of violence and ‘insurrection’
Seda Sevencan |31.05.2024 -
TRT
ISTANBUL
If Donald Trump supporters are allowed to have their way, the US would be headed for some very dark and bloody days.
The ex-president’s conviction on 34 felony counts in a hush money case has sparked a torrent of violent threats from his hardcore base, most of them on Trump’s own Truth Social platform or other far-right forums like Patriots.Win and the Gateway Pundit.
“Civil war. Nothing can stop what is coming,” one user raged, mincing no words.
Others issued calls for people to stock up and take up arms.
“Arm up. This s**t is going to get violent if SCOTUS takes it up. If you don’t have one, you need to get yourself a rifle and ammo.”
Another chimed in saying, “You will need them sooner than you think.”
One person linked the entire situation to gun regulations: “If this had happened in any other country but the US, there would be a dozen comments about ‘this is what you get for giving up your guns,’ whether factual or not.”
When it comes to Trump and his supporters, such words and threats carry more significance, given the events of the Jan. 6, 2021 Capitol Hill riots.
Another supporter referred to what many have termed the “darkest day for US democracy” with a blunt post: “You want an insurrection? This is how you get an insurrection.”
‘Fake trial with fake charges’
On the actual legal proceedings, Trump’s fanbase clearly followed the former president’s lead, rejecting not just the charges but the entire process.
Minutes after he was convicted, Trump spoke to reporters outside the New York courtroom, blasting the “rigged trial by a conflicted judge,” calling it a “disgrace” and something “done by the Biden administration.”
“We didn’t do a thing wrong. I’m a very innocent man,” he said, vowing to “fight till the end.”
This was the line of messaging repeated by his supporters, but some took a more extreme stance with messages like: “Hope every juror dies horribly.”
“Conviction is more proof the government and justice system are completely broken and are beyond repair,” said another user.
One declared it the “day democracy died in America!” as another dismissed it “a fake trial with fake charges, funded by Democrats and George Soros, overseen by a greedy corrupt D.A., and a greedy corrupt judge.”
“We have become a country where communist/marxist judges, DA's (sic), the DOJ and Democrats can persecute their political opponents with trumped up charges, turning misdemeanors into felonies to jail their opposition,” another person wrote.
For one Trump supporter, his conviction is proof of “the erosion of our freedoms” and that “America, as we know it, has fallen.”
“My Country under siege. Oppressed by tyranny … Liberty is set aside. Patriots are despised. Let chaos reign!” said another enraged fan.
ISTANBUL
If Donald Trump supporters are allowed to have their way, the US would be headed for some very dark and bloody days.
The ex-president’s conviction on 34 felony counts in a hush money case has sparked a torrent of violent threats from his hardcore base, most of them on Trump’s own Truth Social platform or other far-right forums like Patriots.Win and the Gateway Pundit.
“Civil war. Nothing can stop what is coming,” one user raged, mincing no words.
Others issued calls for people to stock up and take up arms.
“Arm up. This s**t is going to get violent if SCOTUS takes it up. If you don’t have one, you need to get yourself a rifle and ammo.”
Another chimed in saying, “You will need them sooner than you think.”
One person linked the entire situation to gun regulations: “If this had happened in any other country but the US, there would be a dozen comments about ‘this is what you get for giving up your guns,’ whether factual or not.”
When it comes to Trump and his supporters, such words and threats carry more significance, given the events of the Jan. 6, 2021 Capitol Hill riots.
Another supporter referred to what many have termed the “darkest day for US democracy” with a blunt post: “You want an insurrection? This is how you get an insurrection.”
‘Fake trial with fake charges’
On the actual legal proceedings, Trump’s fanbase clearly followed the former president’s lead, rejecting not just the charges but the entire process.
Minutes after he was convicted, Trump spoke to reporters outside the New York courtroom, blasting the “rigged trial by a conflicted judge,” calling it a “disgrace” and something “done by the Biden administration.”
“We didn’t do a thing wrong. I’m a very innocent man,” he said, vowing to “fight till the end.”
This was the line of messaging repeated by his supporters, but some took a more extreme stance with messages like: “Hope every juror dies horribly.”
“Conviction is more proof the government and justice system are completely broken and are beyond repair,” said another user.
One declared it the “day democracy died in America!” as another dismissed it “a fake trial with fake charges, funded by Democrats and George Soros, overseen by a greedy corrupt D.A., and a greedy corrupt judge.”
“We have become a country where communist/marxist judges, DA's (sic), the DOJ and Democrats can persecute their political opponents with trumped up charges, turning misdemeanors into felonies to jail their opposition,” another person wrote.
For one Trump supporter, his conviction is proof of “the erosion of our freedoms” and that “America, as we know it, has fallen.”
“My Country under siege. Oppressed by tyranny … Liberty is set aside. Patriots are despised. Let chaos reign!” said another enraged fan.
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“Unprecedented in the History of American Republicanism”: Historian on Trump Verdict & GOP Extremism
STORY
STORY
MAY 31, 2024
GUEST
GUEST
Manisha Sinha
historian of U.S. politics, slavery, abolition, the legacy of the Civil War and Reconstruction.
LINKS"The Rise and Fall of the Second American Republic: Reconstruction, 1860-1920"
In a historic verdict, a New York jury found former President Donald Trump guilty on all 34 felony counts in his criminal hush money and election interference trial. Trump is now the first former president to be convicted of a felony and faces up to four years in prison. “All this is unprecedented in the history of American republicanism,” says U.S. historian Manisha Sinha. “A man like Trump could very much upend this over-200-year historical experiment in representative government.” Trump can still be president as a convicted felon and is poised to become the Republican nominee for the nation’s highest office in July. “One of the most dangerous things about Trump is that he’s not a one-man show,” says Sinha. “He’s the presumptive nominee of a political party in a two-party system. That in itself poses an immense danger to American democracy.”
Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman.
Former President Donald Trump will be sentenced July 11th, four days before the Republican National Convention in Milwaukee, after a New York jury found him guilty Thursday on all 34 counts of falsifying business records to cover up payments made to Stormy Daniels in order to protect his 2016 presidential campaign. Trump has vowed to appeal, also faces three more criminal cases.
For more, we’re joined by professor Manisha Sinha, historian of U.S. politics, slavery, abolition, the legacy of the Civil War and Reconstruction, professor at the University of Connecticut and author of several books, including The Rise and Fall of the Second American Republic: Reconstruction, 1860-1920.
Professor, you last joined us on the day after the January 6th insurrection. Welcome back to Democracy Now! First, respond to this historic moment in U.S. history, not just U.S. politics, the first former president to become a felon.
MANISHA SINHA: Thank you for having me, Amy.
Yes, it is extremely unprecedented, because we have never had a case in United States history when a former president has been not only impeached twice, but also is now a convicted felon. Of course, there have been instances of corruption amongst presidents and vice presidents, but mostly they have resigned, before they could be convicted, and they have been pardoned. What’s unusual about Trump’s case is the extent of the criminality, the various cases against him, and now this unanimous jury decision convicting him for falsifying business records, but also, most importantly, for trying to corrupt the 2016 elections.
All this is unprecedented in the history of American republicanism. As so much that concerns Trump, he wears this as a badge of honor. He seems unrepentant even in the face of all these convictions. So, yes, I think we are, in fact, at a crossroads in the history of American republicanism. And a man like Trump could very much upend this over-200-year historical experiment in representative government.
AMY GOODMAN: So, it’s not clear what will happen July 11th, except that he will be sentenced by Judge Merchan. He could sentence him to up to four years in prison. It’s highly unlikely he would do that. He could sentence him to house arrest. He could be out on probation. But if you can talk about the political significance of right before the Republican convention, what this means? You have a president now, a presidential candidate, who represents a lot of firsts in U.S. history: the first former president to be indicted, criminally tried, convicted, impeached twice. Talk about his legacy and what this means as the Republican front-runner.
MANISHA SINHA: Yes. I think one of the most dangerous things about Trump is that he’s not a one-man show. He is the presumptive nominee of a political party in a two-party system. That in itself poses an immense danger, I think, to American democracy.
He’s also now a convicted felon, as you mentioned. It’s a Class E felony. He may not go to prison, but he is in the same category as those people who do carjackings or those who are accused of aggravated domestic assault. Now, this is a category of criminality that he is a part of.
And I cannot help but think that any right-thinking American citizen, even a moderate Republican, would have to think about that. I don’t think that this conviction, as many have argued, will actually increase his support. Those — a minority that supported him will always support him, because there have been so many acts of criminality and wrongdoing that have preceded this. I do think, though, that this will make an enormous difference to moderates, independents, will make them think twice — do they want to actually vote for a felon? — especially a party that pretends to stand for law and order.
AMY GOODMAN: So, we spoke to you the day after the January 6th insurrection in 2021, Professor Sinha. In fact, you were among the historians included in one of the biggest briefs in Trump v. Colorado. Your work was also quoted. Can you talk about this case in the context of your new book, which focuses on the Reconstruction era and when the 14th Amendment was ratified? And explain it all.
MANISHA SINHA: Yes. You know, I, as a historian, really do feel that our present is shaped by the past. We are not exactly repeating history, but we live with those legacies. And in my book, when I look at this period, Reconstruction, that immediately followed the Civil War, I talk a lot about how ex-Confederates, insurrectionists, got away, literally, with murder, right? They launched a program of domestic terrorism. They have committed treason against the government of the United States. And very soon, because of an amnesty law, they’re back in power. They may have lost the war, but they win the peace.
And that represents what I call a nadir in American democracy. I don’t think many American citizens may be even aware that we have lost our democracy for decades, certainly in the South, where it was open season on freed people, and you had a regime of racial terror, segregation and disfranchisement for Black men, and later on Black women. And I don’t think we can today go down a path where we similarly have a completely emasculated democracy. We live with the legacies of that period, as I mentioned to you.
The 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which is a Reconstruction-era amendment, is a sleeping giant. It does prevent someone who has participated in or aided and abetted an insurrection from ever running for federal office, someone who has sworn an oath to uphold the U.S. Constitution. And the only way that person can do that is to be pardoned by Congress by a two-thirds vote.
Now, it was very disappointing to me that the Supreme Court, in the Trump v. Colorado case, decided — including the liberal judges — that Trump in fact is not liable under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. In fact, he is. It’s a very clear disqualification. Now, Congress could take away the disqualification for him. The idea that this would create a patchwork system, where different states would then take Biden off the ballot, actually does not work, because Biden has not led an insurrection against the government of the United States or proven false to his oath of office. This would be actually a national disqualification, even though the case stemmed from Colorado. So, our Supreme Court did not have, I think, the moral courage or judicial courage to do this. They thought only expediently about the political fallout from their decision.
Instead, 12 ordinary American citizens defended our democracy. And this is exactly what Abraham Lincoln said on the eve of the Civil War, that the fate of our democracy actually lies in the hands not of the rich and powerful, but in the hands of ordinary American citizens. And if you look at the jurors, a lot of them didn’t seem to me particularly anti-Trump. In fact, I thought maybe there’s going to be a hung jury, even though the prosecution had an airtight case. So, for this decision to come down sort of renews my faith in democracy, that if ordinary people, ordinary citizens, get the chance to really deliberate on Trump’s many crimes and misdemeanors, then perhaps we will get a right decision.
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to end by asking you about a related story in the Supreme Court. Of course, President Trump appointed three of the nine Supreme Court justices. And I wanted to ask you about this latest controversy around Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito, who told Congress he will not recuse himself from cases involving Donald Trump and the January 6th Capitol insurrection, after photos emerged of two flags associated with election deniers flying in front of Alito’s homes in Virginia and New Jersey. He said his wife did it. One of those, an upside-down American flag. So there are many who are demanding that he recuse himself from these cases. He says no. Your response, Professor Sinha?
MANISHA SINHA: Yes. You know, the Supreme Court, in U.S. history, has not distinguished itself as a defender of democracy. Think of Dred Scott. Think of Plessy v. Ferguson. The Warren Court, during the civil rights era, emerges as an exception.
We’ve had partisan judges before, but we have not had corrupt judges. We have not had judges sympathetic to insurrection against the government of the United States, whether it was Alito and his wife, whether it is Thomas or his wife. These two judges are clearly involved in planned insurrection against the government of the United States, or at least displaying their sympathy for it very openly by flying an upside-down American flag, which is a sign of disrespect, and the “Appeal to the Heavens” flag. The idea of simply, you know, passing the buck on —
AMY GOODMAN: The “Appeal to Heavens” flag is that pine tree flag.
MANISHA SINHA: Exactly. The passing the buck onto his wife seems really ironic for somebody like Alito, who has taken away women’s fundamental right to decide for themselves how and what they do with their bodies. He has taken away reproductive freedom from a majority of women, and now he tells us that he bowed to the decision of his wife to display flags that were sympathetic to the January 6th insurrectionists.
You mentioned that you had interviewed me immediately the day after. And even though I am a historian who has studied American history and knows that there have been instances of grave danger to democracy in U.S. history, I was shocked. And you could see the shock in my face.
To have a justice of the Supreme Court, who is supposed to uphold the highest laws of the country, be an active participant in this sort of behavior is just astounding. And the shamelessness of it is similarly astounding, that he would — after being sort of outed by the press, that he would refuse to recuse himself. Frankly, I think both Thomas and Alito are completely compromised, besides being very corrupt. They should either resign or, at the very least, recuse themselves.
And I think it’s about time for the Democrats to take a more aggressive position on this. At this point, we are not talking about some slight convention that has been upturned. This is a real threat to American rights and freedom. And we need to — you know, Biden likes to compare himself to FDR. Well, then, think about packing the court. Think about judicial reform. We need to act against this. We cannot just let Alito decide for himself, because he’s clearly incapable of making the right decision.
AMY GOODMAN: Manisha Sinha, we want to thank you for being with us, historian of U.S. politics, slavery, abolition, the legacy of the Civil War and Reconstruction, professor at the University of Connecticut.
historian of U.S. politics, slavery, abolition, the legacy of the Civil War and Reconstruction.
LINKS"The Rise and Fall of the Second American Republic: Reconstruction, 1860-1920"
In a historic verdict, a New York jury found former President Donald Trump guilty on all 34 felony counts in his criminal hush money and election interference trial. Trump is now the first former president to be convicted of a felony and faces up to four years in prison. “All this is unprecedented in the history of American republicanism,” says U.S. historian Manisha Sinha. “A man like Trump could very much upend this over-200-year historical experiment in representative government.” Trump can still be president as a convicted felon and is poised to become the Republican nominee for the nation’s highest office in July. “One of the most dangerous things about Trump is that he’s not a one-man show,” says Sinha. “He’s the presumptive nominee of a political party in a two-party system. That in itself poses an immense danger to American democracy.”
Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman.
Former President Donald Trump will be sentenced July 11th, four days before the Republican National Convention in Milwaukee, after a New York jury found him guilty Thursday on all 34 counts of falsifying business records to cover up payments made to Stormy Daniels in order to protect his 2016 presidential campaign. Trump has vowed to appeal, also faces three more criminal cases.
For more, we’re joined by professor Manisha Sinha, historian of U.S. politics, slavery, abolition, the legacy of the Civil War and Reconstruction, professor at the University of Connecticut and author of several books, including The Rise and Fall of the Second American Republic: Reconstruction, 1860-1920.
Professor, you last joined us on the day after the January 6th insurrection. Welcome back to Democracy Now! First, respond to this historic moment in U.S. history, not just U.S. politics, the first former president to become a felon.
MANISHA SINHA: Thank you for having me, Amy.
Yes, it is extremely unprecedented, because we have never had a case in United States history when a former president has been not only impeached twice, but also is now a convicted felon. Of course, there have been instances of corruption amongst presidents and vice presidents, but mostly they have resigned, before they could be convicted, and they have been pardoned. What’s unusual about Trump’s case is the extent of the criminality, the various cases against him, and now this unanimous jury decision convicting him for falsifying business records, but also, most importantly, for trying to corrupt the 2016 elections.
All this is unprecedented in the history of American republicanism. As so much that concerns Trump, he wears this as a badge of honor. He seems unrepentant even in the face of all these convictions. So, yes, I think we are, in fact, at a crossroads in the history of American republicanism. And a man like Trump could very much upend this over-200-year historical experiment in representative government.
AMY GOODMAN: So, it’s not clear what will happen July 11th, except that he will be sentenced by Judge Merchan. He could sentence him to up to four years in prison. It’s highly unlikely he would do that. He could sentence him to house arrest. He could be out on probation. But if you can talk about the political significance of right before the Republican convention, what this means? You have a president now, a presidential candidate, who represents a lot of firsts in U.S. history: the first former president to be indicted, criminally tried, convicted, impeached twice. Talk about his legacy and what this means as the Republican front-runner.
MANISHA SINHA: Yes. I think one of the most dangerous things about Trump is that he’s not a one-man show. He is the presumptive nominee of a political party in a two-party system. That in itself poses an immense danger, I think, to American democracy.
He’s also now a convicted felon, as you mentioned. It’s a Class E felony. He may not go to prison, but he is in the same category as those people who do carjackings or those who are accused of aggravated domestic assault. Now, this is a category of criminality that he is a part of.
And I cannot help but think that any right-thinking American citizen, even a moderate Republican, would have to think about that. I don’t think that this conviction, as many have argued, will actually increase his support. Those — a minority that supported him will always support him, because there have been so many acts of criminality and wrongdoing that have preceded this. I do think, though, that this will make an enormous difference to moderates, independents, will make them think twice — do they want to actually vote for a felon? — especially a party that pretends to stand for law and order.
AMY GOODMAN: So, we spoke to you the day after the January 6th insurrection in 2021, Professor Sinha. In fact, you were among the historians included in one of the biggest briefs in Trump v. Colorado. Your work was also quoted. Can you talk about this case in the context of your new book, which focuses on the Reconstruction era and when the 14th Amendment was ratified? And explain it all.
MANISHA SINHA: Yes. You know, I, as a historian, really do feel that our present is shaped by the past. We are not exactly repeating history, but we live with those legacies. And in my book, when I look at this period, Reconstruction, that immediately followed the Civil War, I talk a lot about how ex-Confederates, insurrectionists, got away, literally, with murder, right? They launched a program of domestic terrorism. They have committed treason against the government of the United States. And very soon, because of an amnesty law, they’re back in power. They may have lost the war, but they win the peace.
And that represents what I call a nadir in American democracy. I don’t think many American citizens may be even aware that we have lost our democracy for decades, certainly in the South, where it was open season on freed people, and you had a regime of racial terror, segregation and disfranchisement for Black men, and later on Black women. And I don’t think we can today go down a path where we similarly have a completely emasculated democracy. We live with the legacies of that period, as I mentioned to you.
The 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which is a Reconstruction-era amendment, is a sleeping giant. It does prevent someone who has participated in or aided and abetted an insurrection from ever running for federal office, someone who has sworn an oath to uphold the U.S. Constitution. And the only way that person can do that is to be pardoned by Congress by a two-thirds vote.
Now, it was very disappointing to me that the Supreme Court, in the Trump v. Colorado case, decided — including the liberal judges — that Trump in fact is not liable under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. In fact, he is. It’s a very clear disqualification. Now, Congress could take away the disqualification for him. The idea that this would create a patchwork system, where different states would then take Biden off the ballot, actually does not work, because Biden has not led an insurrection against the government of the United States or proven false to his oath of office. This would be actually a national disqualification, even though the case stemmed from Colorado. So, our Supreme Court did not have, I think, the moral courage or judicial courage to do this. They thought only expediently about the political fallout from their decision.
Instead, 12 ordinary American citizens defended our democracy. And this is exactly what Abraham Lincoln said on the eve of the Civil War, that the fate of our democracy actually lies in the hands not of the rich and powerful, but in the hands of ordinary American citizens. And if you look at the jurors, a lot of them didn’t seem to me particularly anti-Trump. In fact, I thought maybe there’s going to be a hung jury, even though the prosecution had an airtight case. So, for this decision to come down sort of renews my faith in democracy, that if ordinary people, ordinary citizens, get the chance to really deliberate on Trump’s many crimes and misdemeanors, then perhaps we will get a right decision.
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to end by asking you about a related story in the Supreme Court. Of course, President Trump appointed three of the nine Supreme Court justices. And I wanted to ask you about this latest controversy around Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito, who told Congress he will not recuse himself from cases involving Donald Trump and the January 6th Capitol insurrection, after photos emerged of two flags associated with election deniers flying in front of Alito’s homes in Virginia and New Jersey. He said his wife did it. One of those, an upside-down American flag. So there are many who are demanding that he recuse himself from these cases. He says no. Your response, Professor Sinha?
MANISHA SINHA: Yes. You know, the Supreme Court, in U.S. history, has not distinguished itself as a defender of democracy. Think of Dred Scott. Think of Plessy v. Ferguson. The Warren Court, during the civil rights era, emerges as an exception.
We’ve had partisan judges before, but we have not had corrupt judges. We have not had judges sympathetic to insurrection against the government of the United States, whether it was Alito and his wife, whether it is Thomas or his wife. These two judges are clearly involved in planned insurrection against the government of the United States, or at least displaying their sympathy for it very openly by flying an upside-down American flag, which is a sign of disrespect, and the “Appeal to the Heavens” flag. The idea of simply, you know, passing the buck on —
AMY GOODMAN: The “Appeal to Heavens” flag is that pine tree flag.
MANISHA SINHA: Exactly. The passing the buck onto his wife seems really ironic for somebody like Alito, who has taken away women’s fundamental right to decide for themselves how and what they do with their bodies. He has taken away reproductive freedom from a majority of women, and now he tells us that he bowed to the decision of his wife to display flags that were sympathetic to the January 6th insurrectionists.
You mentioned that you had interviewed me immediately the day after. And even though I am a historian who has studied American history and knows that there have been instances of grave danger to democracy in U.S. history, I was shocked. And you could see the shock in my face.
To have a justice of the Supreme Court, who is supposed to uphold the highest laws of the country, be an active participant in this sort of behavior is just astounding. And the shamelessness of it is similarly astounding, that he would — after being sort of outed by the press, that he would refuse to recuse himself. Frankly, I think both Thomas and Alito are completely compromised, besides being very corrupt. They should either resign or, at the very least, recuse themselves.
And I think it’s about time for the Democrats to take a more aggressive position on this. At this point, we are not talking about some slight convention that has been upturned. This is a real threat to American rights and freedom. And we need to — you know, Biden likes to compare himself to FDR. Well, then, think about packing the court. Think about judicial reform. We need to act against this. We cannot just let Alito decide for himself, because he’s clearly incapable of making the right decision.
AMY GOODMAN: Manisha Sinha, we want to thank you for being with us, historian of U.S. politics, slavery, abolition, the legacy of the Civil War and Reconstruction, professor at the University of Connecticut.
Guilty: Trump Becomes First Ex-President Felon in U.S. History
STORY
STORY
MAY 31, 2024
GUEST
Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: After three weeks of testimony and two days of deliberations, former President Donald Trump’s hush money election fraud criminal trial ended Thursday with a historic verdict. This is Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg.
ALVIN BRAGG: Today we have the most important voice of all, and that’s the voice of the jurors. They have spoken. Donald J. Trump has been convicted of 34 counts of falsifying business records.
AMY GOODMAN: Yes, former President Donald Trump has been found guilty of all 34 counts of falsifying business records to cover up payments made to Stormy Daniels in order to protect his 2016 presidential campaign. He’s the first former president to be convicted of a felony and faces up to four years in prison, though Judge Juan Merchan could instead impose a fine, probation or supervision. Trump’s defense team said it plans to appeal. Merchan set Trump’s sentencing date for July 11th, four days before the Republican National Convention, where Trump will become the party’s official presidential nominee.
At the courthouse in downtown Manhattan, Trump slammed the verdict as a disgrace.
DONALD TRUMP: The real verdict is going to be November 5th by the people. And they know what happened here, and everybody knows what happened here. You have a Soros-backed DA. And the whole thing, we didn’t do a thing wrong. I’m a very innocent man.
AMY GOODMAN: Meanwhile, President Joe Biden’s campaign said the verdict shows no one is above the law. Trump also faces three more criminal cases.
We begin our coverage of Trump’s historic conviction with Ron Kuby, criminal defense and civil rights lawyer based here in New York.
Ron, welcome back to Democracy Now! Your response?
RON KUBY: Thank you.
I was not surprised by the verdict. I was surprised that it came back as quickly as it did. Most of us who had been privately speculating speculated that it would be late afternoon today, Friday, at the very earliest, if not next week.
In thinking about it, you know, especially having the luxury of knowing what the verdict is, the prosecutor told this remarkably compelling story, over a six-hour period — I mean, he could have cut it down a bit. But he started at the very beginning, with the conspiracy, how it was formed, who was in the room; brought in all the witnesses; integrated every piece of evidence; responded to the defense arguments in the process; and finished and really gave the jury, you know, an entire script that they could follow, if they chose to do so. And they did choose to do that. And since all of the charges stemmed from basically the same thing —
AMY GOODMAN: Which was?
RON KUBY: Which was this falsification of business records for the purpose of concealing another crime. Once the jury found guilty on one count, it was very easy to find him guilty of all 34.
AMY GOODMAN: And, of course, you had those checks that President Trump signed with a Sharpie.
RON KUBY: Sharpie.
AMY GOODMAN: Famous, nine of the checks that were sent to Michael Cohen. Now, the defense had argued that Michael Cohen was a thief and a liar. But the prosecution said, you know, we don’t get to actually always choose the perfect witness; he’s basically a tour guide through the documents, they described.
RON KUBY: Well, that’s — I think the prosecution minimized his role somewhat. There were a couple of — the only person who could directly tie Trump to full knowledge of the hush money payments was Michael Cohen. But there was this, you know, tsunami of circumstantial evidence tying Trump to causing these payments to be made and these false entries to be made. And the jury very much relied on that. And the defense never posed any sort of realistic counternarrative. That is, OK, if this isn’t, you know, would-be President Trump doing all of this in order to gain an election advantage by paying off a porn star and people not knowing, finding out about it, just what is it? Just somehow explain it. And the defense never even came close to providing an alternative explanation.
AMY GOODMAN: So, President Trump has become a felon. What does that mean, even before the sentencing? And then, what do you expect on July 11th?
RON KUBY: Well, one thing it means is he cannot own a firearm. Now, OK, he can become commander-in-chief and can, you know, declare nuclear war, but he cannot personally own a firearm. It doesn’t really change much in terms of his legal liabilities and the like. Mostly what it does is he’s now introduced as convicted felon Trump.
He faces sentencing on July 11th. And while even if he is sentenced to prison time, which I do expect that he will get some sort of carceral sentence, it will undoubtedly be stayed pending multiple appeals, thanks to New York’s very liberal bail laws, which the right wing usually attacks, but now I know somebody who’s pretty happy that they exist on the books.
AMY GOODMAN: And so, let’s talk about what that means, July 11, four days before the Republican National Convention in Milwaukee. If he was sentenced even to a week, he would miss the convention, if he was frogmarched out of the courthouse into jail.
RON KUBY: That’s right, but he would not be so frogmarched. He would receive a stay, either from Judge Merchan or from an appellate judge, until his appeal can be perfected. And there are many appeals after that. So, I think it’s important to realize that, yes, Judge Merchan, in my opinion, is likely to impose a jail sentence, but no one is going to hear the steel door slam shut behind him for a long time pending various appeals.
AMY GOODMAN: Can he vote?
RON KUBY: He can.
AMY GOODMAN: He can?
RON KUBY: He can, because he is a New York — this is a New York conviction. And so, right now, as of today — it could change. In Florida, Florida looks to New York’s disenfranchisement law, so the only way he can’t vote in Florida is if he is actually in prison in New York on Election Day.
AMY GOODMAN: And in a future show, we’re going to look at those voter rights around the country and what happens to not just prisoners, but people who are free. Maybe he could be sentenced to home arrest or whatever. But under probation and parole, what are people’s rights? I mean, in Vermont, you can vote from prison. In other places, you can’t vote for the rest of your life if you’ve ever gone to prison, if you’ve been convicted of a felony.
RON KUBY: And something that probably has yet to fully dawn on Trump’s legal team is he remains under the carceral control of Judge Merchan. He is a defendant out on release pending sentencing, and ultimately pending appeal, but Merchan maintains control over him. So, if he goes out and commits other crimes, for example, the judge can impose additional restrictions on him or even do what the right wing has encouraged people to do with serial committers of crimes: lock him up.
AMY GOODMAN: You mention that President Trump can run for president as a felon and be president as a felon, but he can’t own a firearm.
RON KUBY: Right.
AMY GOODMAN: If he became president, could he change that law?
RON KUBY: Well, Congress would actually have to change that law. That’s —
AMY GOODMAN: He could lobby for it. Or executive order?
RON KUBY: No, no. There’s positive law prohibiting a felon from possessing a firearm.
AMY GOODMAN: And explain why he couldn’t pardon himself, if he were president.
RON KUBY: The presidential pardon power applies to all offenses under federal law, except treason and impeachment. It has no application to offenses committed under various state laws. The only person who can pardon President Trump in New York state is Governor Kathy Hochul.
AMY GOODMAN: So, he could pardon himself in the federal documents case.
RON KUBY: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: He could pardon himself in the interference case.
RON KUBY: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: Jack Smith’s case. But not in the Georgia case that’s upcoming under Fani Willis, that DA, and not in this case, under Alvin Bragg?
RON KUBY: Excellent. You’ve got it.
AMY GOODMAN: So, talk about Alvin Bragg and the significance of what he did today. Grew up not so far from President Trump, in Harlem, went to Harvard, Harvard Law School, came out. And some criticized him for not moving faster on Trump. Others said — of course, Trump himself — that he had been after him from the beginning. In fact, he skips over Bragg and talks about Biden, that this is an unfair Biden circus. How is Alvin Bragg related to Biden?
RON KUBY: Their last names both start with “B.” There’s no relationship there. And Alvin Bragg’s career trajectory is not a trajectory of a traditional politician or somebody interested in seeking higher office. He won district attorney as a criminal justice reformer. He’s done some good work in that area. He’s not a headline seeker in any fashion. He’s always remained sort of out of the spotlight, relatively humble, not talking a lot about the cases.
And I always thought this was a very solid case from the beginning. It wasn’t the big, grand case that Trump haters wanted, but it was a good, solid case based not on presidential abuse of power or presidential authority, but based really on a common, tawdry, dirty little grift.
AMY GOODMAN: Finally, summarize what he was found guilty of 34 times.
RON KUBY: He was found guilty of 34 counts of falsification of business records for the purpose of concealing the commission of another crime. That is, every time they made a bookkeeping entry showing that Michael Cohen was being paid for legal services or signed a check for legal services, Trump knew and caused those entries to be fraudulent. And he did that for the purpose of concealing election law violations.
AMY GOODMAN: And that election law violation?
RON KUBY: Well, that would be various either federal or state campaign contributions or conspiracy to affect the outcome of the 2016 election. You don’t have to actually prove that he committed those crimes. You don’t have to prove those crimes beyond a reasonable doubt. You just have to prove that the concealment was done in order to conceal the commission of those crimes. And let’s face it, people don’t cook their books just for fun. Usually when they cook their books, they’re trying to cover up some other misdeed. There’s well-established law about this. Usually in New York, the federal crime that they’re committing is a Securities and Exchange Commission violation, very common, regularly prosecuted. And something similar was charged here. It wasn’t some way far-out, tenuous legal theory.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, we’re going to talk about the significance of the first former president to be convicted as a felon in a moment. Ron Kuby, we want to thank you so much.
RON KUBY: Thank you.
AMY GOODMAN: A criminal defense lawyer and civil rights attorney based here in New York.
GUEST
Ron Kuby
criminal defense and civil rights lawyer based in New York.
LINKSRon Kuby law office
Guilty on all 34 felony counts — that’s the historic verdict delivered Thursday by a New York jury in former President Donald Trump’s hush money and election fraud criminal trial. Trump was charged with falsifying business records to cover up payments made to adult film star Stormy Daniels in order to protect his 2016 presidential campaign and is now the first former president to be convicted of a felony, facing the possibility of up to four years in prison. Judge Juan Merchan set his sentencing date on July 11, four days before the Republican National Convention, where Trump will become the party’s official presidential nominee. Trump, who can still be president as a convicted felon, slammed the verdict as a “disgrace,” and his defense team plans to appeal. We speak with criminal defense attorney Ron Kuby, who followed the case closely and says there was a “tsunami of circumstantial evidence” that supported the prosecution’s case. “The defense never posed any sort of realistic counternarrative,” says Kuby.
criminal defense and civil rights lawyer based in New York.
LINKSRon Kuby law office
Guilty on all 34 felony counts — that’s the historic verdict delivered Thursday by a New York jury in former President Donald Trump’s hush money and election fraud criminal trial. Trump was charged with falsifying business records to cover up payments made to adult film star Stormy Daniels in order to protect his 2016 presidential campaign and is now the first former president to be convicted of a felony, facing the possibility of up to four years in prison. Judge Juan Merchan set his sentencing date on July 11, four days before the Republican National Convention, where Trump will become the party’s official presidential nominee. Trump, who can still be president as a convicted felon, slammed the verdict as a “disgrace,” and his defense team plans to appeal. We speak with criminal defense attorney Ron Kuby, who followed the case closely and says there was a “tsunami of circumstantial evidence” that supported the prosecution’s case. “The defense never posed any sort of realistic counternarrative,” says Kuby.
Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: After three weeks of testimony and two days of deliberations, former President Donald Trump’s hush money election fraud criminal trial ended Thursday with a historic verdict. This is Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg.
ALVIN BRAGG: Today we have the most important voice of all, and that’s the voice of the jurors. They have spoken. Donald J. Trump has been convicted of 34 counts of falsifying business records.
AMY GOODMAN: Yes, former President Donald Trump has been found guilty of all 34 counts of falsifying business records to cover up payments made to Stormy Daniels in order to protect his 2016 presidential campaign. He’s the first former president to be convicted of a felony and faces up to four years in prison, though Judge Juan Merchan could instead impose a fine, probation or supervision. Trump’s defense team said it plans to appeal. Merchan set Trump’s sentencing date for July 11th, four days before the Republican National Convention, where Trump will become the party’s official presidential nominee.
At the courthouse in downtown Manhattan, Trump slammed the verdict as a disgrace.
DONALD TRUMP: The real verdict is going to be November 5th by the people. And they know what happened here, and everybody knows what happened here. You have a Soros-backed DA. And the whole thing, we didn’t do a thing wrong. I’m a very innocent man.
AMY GOODMAN: Meanwhile, President Joe Biden’s campaign said the verdict shows no one is above the law. Trump also faces three more criminal cases.
We begin our coverage of Trump’s historic conviction with Ron Kuby, criminal defense and civil rights lawyer based here in New York.
Ron, welcome back to Democracy Now! Your response?
RON KUBY: Thank you.
I was not surprised by the verdict. I was surprised that it came back as quickly as it did. Most of us who had been privately speculating speculated that it would be late afternoon today, Friday, at the very earliest, if not next week.
In thinking about it, you know, especially having the luxury of knowing what the verdict is, the prosecutor told this remarkably compelling story, over a six-hour period — I mean, he could have cut it down a bit. But he started at the very beginning, with the conspiracy, how it was formed, who was in the room; brought in all the witnesses; integrated every piece of evidence; responded to the defense arguments in the process; and finished and really gave the jury, you know, an entire script that they could follow, if they chose to do so. And they did choose to do that. And since all of the charges stemmed from basically the same thing —
AMY GOODMAN: Which was?
RON KUBY: Which was this falsification of business records for the purpose of concealing another crime. Once the jury found guilty on one count, it was very easy to find him guilty of all 34.
AMY GOODMAN: And, of course, you had those checks that President Trump signed with a Sharpie.
RON KUBY: Sharpie.
AMY GOODMAN: Famous, nine of the checks that were sent to Michael Cohen. Now, the defense had argued that Michael Cohen was a thief and a liar. But the prosecution said, you know, we don’t get to actually always choose the perfect witness; he’s basically a tour guide through the documents, they described.
RON KUBY: Well, that’s — I think the prosecution minimized his role somewhat. There were a couple of — the only person who could directly tie Trump to full knowledge of the hush money payments was Michael Cohen. But there was this, you know, tsunami of circumstantial evidence tying Trump to causing these payments to be made and these false entries to be made. And the jury very much relied on that. And the defense never posed any sort of realistic counternarrative. That is, OK, if this isn’t, you know, would-be President Trump doing all of this in order to gain an election advantage by paying off a porn star and people not knowing, finding out about it, just what is it? Just somehow explain it. And the defense never even came close to providing an alternative explanation.
AMY GOODMAN: So, President Trump has become a felon. What does that mean, even before the sentencing? And then, what do you expect on July 11th?
RON KUBY: Well, one thing it means is he cannot own a firearm. Now, OK, he can become commander-in-chief and can, you know, declare nuclear war, but he cannot personally own a firearm. It doesn’t really change much in terms of his legal liabilities and the like. Mostly what it does is he’s now introduced as convicted felon Trump.
He faces sentencing on July 11th. And while even if he is sentenced to prison time, which I do expect that he will get some sort of carceral sentence, it will undoubtedly be stayed pending multiple appeals, thanks to New York’s very liberal bail laws, which the right wing usually attacks, but now I know somebody who’s pretty happy that they exist on the books.
AMY GOODMAN: And so, let’s talk about what that means, July 11, four days before the Republican National Convention in Milwaukee. If he was sentenced even to a week, he would miss the convention, if he was frogmarched out of the courthouse into jail.
RON KUBY: That’s right, but he would not be so frogmarched. He would receive a stay, either from Judge Merchan or from an appellate judge, until his appeal can be perfected. And there are many appeals after that. So, I think it’s important to realize that, yes, Judge Merchan, in my opinion, is likely to impose a jail sentence, but no one is going to hear the steel door slam shut behind him for a long time pending various appeals.
AMY GOODMAN: Can he vote?
RON KUBY: He can.
AMY GOODMAN: He can?
RON KUBY: He can, because he is a New York — this is a New York conviction. And so, right now, as of today — it could change. In Florida, Florida looks to New York’s disenfranchisement law, so the only way he can’t vote in Florida is if he is actually in prison in New York on Election Day.
AMY GOODMAN: And in a future show, we’re going to look at those voter rights around the country and what happens to not just prisoners, but people who are free. Maybe he could be sentenced to home arrest or whatever. But under probation and parole, what are people’s rights? I mean, in Vermont, you can vote from prison. In other places, you can’t vote for the rest of your life if you’ve ever gone to prison, if you’ve been convicted of a felony.
RON KUBY: And something that probably has yet to fully dawn on Trump’s legal team is he remains under the carceral control of Judge Merchan. He is a defendant out on release pending sentencing, and ultimately pending appeal, but Merchan maintains control over him. So, if he goes out and commits other crimes, for example, the judge can impose additional restrictions on him or even do what the right wing has encouraged people to do with serial committers of crimes: lock him up.
AMY GOODMAN: You mention that President Trump can run for president as a felon and be president as a felon, but he can’t own a firearm.
RON KUBY: Right.
AMY GOODMAN: If he became president, could he change that law?
RON KUBY: Well, Congress would actually have to change that law. That’s —
AMY GOODMAN: He could lobby for it. Or executive order?
RON KUBY: No, no. There’s positive law prohibiting a felon from possessing a firearm.
AMY GOODMAN: And explain why he couldn’t pardon himself, if he were president.
RON KUBY: The presidential pardon power applies to all offenses under federal law, except treason and impeachment. It has no application to offenses committed under various state laws. The only person who can pardon President Trump in New York state is Governor Kathy Hochul.
AMY GOODMAN: So, he could pardon himself in the federal documents case.
RON KUBY: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: He could pardon himself in the interference case.
RON KUBY: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: Jack Smith’s case. But not in the Georgia case that’s upcoming under Fani Willis, that DA, and not in this case, under Alvin Bragg?
RON KUBY: Excellent. You’ve got it.
AMY GOODMAN: So, talk about Alvin Bragg and the significance of what he did today. Grew up not so far from President Trump, in Harlem, went to Harvard, Harvard Law School, came out. And some criticized him for not moving faster on Trump. Others said — of course, Trump himself — that he had been after him from the beginning. In fact, he skips over Bragg and talks about Biden, that this is an unfair Biden circus. How is Alvin Bragg related to Biden?
RON KUBY: Their last names both start with “B.” There’s no relationship there. And Alvin Bragg’s career trajectory is not a trajectory of a traditional politician or somebody interested in seeking higher office. He won district attorney as a criminal justice reformer. He’s done some good work in that area. He’s not a headline seeker in any fashion. He’s always remained sort of out of the spotlight, relatively humble, not talking a lot about the cases.
And I always thought this was a very solid case from the beginning. It wasn’t the big, grand case that Trump haters wanted, but it was a good, solid case based not on presidential abuse of power or presidential authority, but based really on a common, tawdry, dirty little grift.
AMY GOODMAN: Finally, summarize what he was found guilty of 34 times.
RON KUBY: He was found guilty of 34 counts of falsification of business records for the purpose of concealing the commission of another crime. That is, every time they made a bookkeeping entry showing that Michael Cohen was being paid for legal services or signed a check for legal services, Trump knew and caused those entries to be fraudulent. And he did that for the purpose of concealing election law violations.
AMY GOODMAN: And that election law violation?
RON KUBY: Well, that would be various either federal or state campaign contributions or conspiracy to affect the outcome of the 2016 election. You don’t have to actually prove that he committed those crimes. You don’t have to prove those crimes beyond a reasonable doubt. You just have to prove that the concealment was done in order to conceal the commission of those crimes. And let’s face it, people don’t cook their books just for fun. Usually when they cook their books, they’re trying to cover up some other misdeed. There’s well-established law about this. Usually in New York, the federal crime that they’re committing is a Securities and Exchange Commission violation, very common, regularly prosecuted. And something similar was charged here. It wasn’t some way far-out, tenuous legal theory.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, we’re going to talk about the significance of the first former president to be convicted as a felon in a moment. Ron Kuby, we want to thank you so much.
RON KUBY: Thank you.
AMY GOODMAN: A criminal defense lawyer and civil rights attorney based here in New York.
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