Saturday, January 21, 2006
Political Nutbar
It is now down to two candidates for Political Nutbar of 2005. Rob Anders and John Duffy. Guess who I voted for.
A Picture Is Worth A Thousand Words
The latestest graphic of poll results as of yesterday. E-3 The picture tells the story, the Liberal decline, Conservatives level off and the NDP on the rise. Courtesy Politics Canada
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POLI-GRAPH - ELECTION CAMPAIGN 2006 |
| GRAPH - polls results surveyed on the same date are averaged. Updated Jan 21, 8:40 AM EST |
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NATIONAL POLLS | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Michael Moore On Bush Lite
Well the Washinton Post, the Chicago Sun Times, The New York Times, CNN, Fox, The Daily Show why everyone in the U.S. has paid us some little attention this election. The Conservatives have been endorsed by the Washington Times and National Review.
So did the Martin campaign encourage Michael Moore to write this? Their eleventh hour appeal to progressives?
Actually its just Moore being Moore. Michael Moore who has paid attention to several of our elections and said the same thing before; Conservatives scary.
His alternative, well I am not sure except perhaps a big hug from him if we do the right thing. Like elect a NDP government. Why are you all laughing.
These are no ordinary times, and as you go to the polls on Monday, you do so while a man running the nation to the south of you is hoping you can lend him a hand by picking Stephen Harper because he's a man who shares his world view. Do you want to help George Bush by turning Canada into his latest conquest?
Is that how you want millions of us down here to see you from now on? The next notch in the cowboy belt? C'mon, where's your Canadian pride? I mean, if you're going to reduce Canada to a cheap download of Bush & Co., then at least don't surrender so easily. Can't you wait until he threatens to bomb Regina? Make him work for it, for Pete's sake.
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So did the Martin campaign encourage Michael Moore to write this? Their eleventh hour appeal to progressives?
Actually its just Moore being Moore. Michael Moore who has paid attention to several of our elections and said the same thing before; Conservatives scary.
His alternative, well I am not sure except perhaps a big hug from him if we do the right thing. Like elect a NDP government. Why are you all laughing.
These are no ordinary times, and as you go to the polls on Monday, you do so while a man running the nation to the south of you is hoping you can lend him a hand by picking Stephen Harper because he's a man who shares his world view. Do you want to help George Bush by turning Canada into his latest conquest?
Is that how you want millions of us down here to see you from now on? The next notch in the cowboy belt? C'mon, where's your Canadian pride? I mean, if you're going to reduce Canada to a cheap download of Bush & Co., then at least don't surrender so easily. Can't you wait until he threatens to bomb Regina? Make him work for it, for Pete's sake.
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It's All About Paul
Why Progressives Cannot Vote Liberal
Cerberus has an excellent article defending the Liberals and attacking the Conservatives in these final days before E-Day.
That being said I disagree with him completely when he says the only choice is between these two parties. I began to leave him a comment but it was getting long, then longer so I thought I would post it here and expand on it.
To say that the Martin Team, NOT the LIberal party, the Martin Team deserve to run this country well as the saying goes; they had their chance and they blew it.
With a minority government handed to them last election they were expected to make a go of it. And even knowing that they faced a disgruntled, ticked off Official opposition, they had to make a go of it. And they blew it. They remained arrogant, dismissive, ruling as they had for the last 12 years, as if they were the Natural Ruling Party. As if they had a majority. This arrogance was the same as that of their predecessor the ever hated Jean Chretien, the guy they fought to replace cause he was old news.
The whole Martin for Leader campaign was the pre-election campaign. And for two years before the 2004 election all these internal shenanigans reflected badly on the Liberal party. They showed a party indifferent to the needs of Canadians, a party more concerned with winning, and with its own internal needs.
After having been in the back rooms, then spending two years abandoning Chretien as they plotted their coup, Team Martin swept through the party purging enemies, and NOT making friends. In a very public way. There was no unification under Team Martin. There was a glorious purge, sweeping away all the Chretienites, in order to claim to be a whole new Liberal Party.
When they got to 24 Sussex they found out that Chretien still had a trick up his sleeve, he left them the ticking time bomb of Adscam. That is why no one can believe Team Martin. Even if Martin says he didn't know about Adscam and even though Gomery exonerated him that claim doesn't sit well with Canadians.
Because we see him as not wanting to know, too busy plotting to overthrow the boss. In effect we are saying he didn't do his job when he was Finance Minister and later when he dropped all his caucus affiliations to run his dump Chretien campaign.
So really if the Liberals loose this one it will be because Team Martin lost it for them three years ago as they brought out the long knives for Chretien. So intent on dumping him, they were solely focused on gaining power, now they appear as only focused on holding onto power. Which is so obvious to everyone in the Country that the vote will certainly go against them. It will go to the BQ, the Conservatives and the NDP. It will be an anybody but Team Martin/Scott Reid/John Duffy/etc. etc.
His own isolation from the party, from a real unified Liberal team, is so obvious that this election has shown him haggard, tired, overworked, short on supporters, short on support, short of new things to say. Team Martin has run this campaign, as they ran the ran the House, for the past eighteen months. They have been arrogant, elitist, out of touch with their base, and unwilling to be open to input from those outside of their small clique.
They are asking for us to vote for Paul Martin Liberal Leadership Candidate.
They have run both the 2004 and this election as if it were a Liberal Party Leadership race. A race they won at the expense of alienating the left of the party, the centre of the party and the right of the party. All that was left was incumbents, back benchers and Team Martin. Now that team is in real trouble where is Martin.
He has failed to campaign for his good pals Anne McLellan in Edmonton and Ralph Goodale in Saskatchewan. Loyal pals, who have taken it on the chin for Team Martin have been deserted by Paul and his crew. Why because there is no Team in I, Me, Paul Martin. This is Pauls war. Just like it was Pauls war against Jean. This is Paul's war against Stephen. This is Pauls election. This isn't about voting for a government its about voting just like in high school, for class president. In this case for Prime Minister.
Team Martin was all about making Paul Martin Prime Minister, as if the position
was akin to the American Presidency. It was never about building the Liberal party. Sheila Copps and Warren Kinsella, are both right on this point. Team Martin was all about inheriting the mantel of governance, and placing the laurel wreath on Martins head. Hail Caesar.
This whole election has been not about Liberals versus Conservatives versus the NDP versus the Bloc. It has been about Paul Martin's Vision of Canada. Not the Liberal Party or its vision or representation of Canada. Of a party that is Canadian and conducts Canadian values by its cross country base a base that exists even in Tory blue Alberta. A base that will be gone after Monday night.
No this has always been about Paul. Paul versus Harper. Paul versus Layton. Paul versus Duceppe. The only political leader Paul has not been against is Jim Harris of the Green Party.
In the debates it was never about policy, platform, or party position. The Liberal Party was not in the debates. It watched Paul Martin perform in its name, and sat on the sidelines.
Team Martin has made this election about Paul and Stephen and Jack and Giles. Martin has personalized it. Ironically for all his exhortations of I Am Canada, Martins campaign has been the most American style campaign we have seen in years. And it hasn't worked.
The polls don't lie. They may not show the winner but they sure do show the loser and that loser is Paul Martin. Under his and Team Martins campaign the Liberal Party numbers have dropped and his personal appeal has declined so far that Jack Layton is meeting him on the way up. But Paul true to form will still be singing I Did My Way until the night the fat lady sings.
The choice Canadians face this election is between the right and the left. That leaves out Team Martin. They do not represent the Liberal Party, the traditional centre of Canadian politics. By personalizing it they have polarized the vote.
This Monday the Choice is clear it is a choice one of four PARTIES, The BQ, The Conservatives, The Greens or The NDP. There is no Liberal party in this election, certainly not one fit to govern as a government. There are four parties in this election running for government and opposition and one guy running for PM.
In English Canada if you are in the least progressive, centrist or to the left of centre, socially aware, concerned about fairness and social justice, and opposed to the Conservatives you have only one choice this election that is the NDP.
On Monday night it will not be a Liberal party loss it will be Paul Martin's loss, and he will go quietly into that good night. Because it has never been about government, good governance, or the Liberal Party. It has always been about Paul Martin Prime Minister. We are not voting out a government we are voting out a man so arrogant that he thought this election was all about being PM.
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Cerberus has an excellent article defending the Liberals and attacking the Conservatives in these final days before E-Day.That being said I disagree with him completely when he says the only choice is between these two parties. I began to leave him a comment but it was getting long, then longer so I thought I would post it here and expand on it.
To say that the Martin Team, NOT the LIberal party, the Martin Team deserve to run this country well as the saying goes; they had their chance and they blew it.
With a minority government handed to them last election they were expected to make a go of it. And even knowing that they faced a disgruntled, ticked off Official opposition, they had to make a go of it. And they blew it. They remained arrogant, dismissive, ruling as they had for the last 12 years, as if they were the Natural Ruling Party. As if they had a majority. This arrogance was the same as that of their predecessor the ever hated Jean Chretien, the guy they fought to replace cause he was old news.
The whole Martin for Leader campaign was the pre-election campaign. And for two years before the 2004 election all these internal shenanigans reflected badly on the Liberal party. They showed a party indifferent to the needs of Canadians, a party more concerned with winning, and with its own internal needs.
After having been in the back rooms, then spending two years abandoning Chretien as they plotted their coup, Team Martin swept through the party purging enemies, and NOT making friends. In a very public way. There was no unification under Team Martin. There was a glorious purge, sweeping away all the Chretienites, in order to claim to be a whole new Liberal Party.
When they got to 24 Sussex they found out that Chretien still had a trick up his sleeve, he left them the ticking time bomb of Adscam. That is why no one can believe Team Martin. Even if Martin says he didn't know about Adscam and even though Gomery exonerated him that claim doesn't sit well with Canadians.
Because we see him as not wanting to know, too busy plotting to overthrow the boss. In effect we are saying he didn't do his job when he was Finance Minister and later when he dropped all his caucus affiliations to run his dump Chretien campaign.
So really if the Liberals loose this one it will be because Team Martin lost it for them three years ago as they brought out the long knives for Chretien. So intent on dumping him, they were solely focused on gaining power, now they appear as only focused on holding onto power. Which is so obvious to everyone in the Country that the vote will certainly go against them. It will go to the BQ, the Conservatives and the NDP. It will be an anybody but Team Martin/Scott Reid/John Duffy/etc. etc.
His own isolation from the party, from a real unified Liberal team, is so obvious that this election has shown him haggard, tired, overworked, short on supporters, short on support, short of new things to say. Team Martin has run this campaign, as they ran the ran the House, for the past eighteen months. They have been arrogant, elitist, out of touch with their base, and unwilling to be open to input from those outside of their small clique.
They are asking for us to vote for Paul Martin Liberal Leadership Candidate.
They have run both the 2004 and this election as if it were a Liberal Party Leadership race. A race they won at the expense of alienating the left of the party, the centre of the party and the right of the party. All that was left was incumbents, back benchers and Team Martin. Now that team is in real trouble where is Martin.
He has failed to campaign for his good pals Anne McLellan in Edmonton and Ralph Goodale in Saskatchewan. Loyal pals, who have taken it on the chin for Team Martin have been deserted by Paul and his crew. Why because there is no Team in I, Me, Paul Martin. This is Pauls war. Just like it was Pauls war against Jean. This is Paul's war against Stephen. This is Pauls election. This isn't about voting for a government its about voting just like in high school, for class president. In this case for Prime Minister.Team Martin was all about making Paul Martin Prime Minister, as if the position
was akin to the American Presidency. It was never about building the Liberal party. Sheila Copps and Warren Kinsella, are both right on this point. Team Martin was all about inheriting the mantel of governance, and placing the laurel wreath on Martins head. Hail Caesar.This whole election has been not about Liberals versus Conservatives versus the NDP versus the Bloc. It has been about Paul Martin's Vision of Canada. Not the Liberal Party or its vision or representation of Canada. Of a party that is Canadian and conducts Canadian values by its cross country base a base that exists even in Tory blue Alberta. A base that will be gone after Monday night.
No this has always been about Paul. Paul versus Harper. Paul versus Layton. Paul versus Duceppe. The only political leader Paul has not been against is Jim Harris of the Green Party.
In the debates it was never about policy, platform, or party position. The Liberal Party was not in the debates. It watched Paul Martin perform in its name, and sat on the sidelines.
Team Martin has made this election about Paul and Stephen and Jack and Giles. Martin has personalized it. Ironically for all his exhortations of I Am Canada, Martins campaign has been the most American style campaign we have seen in years. And it hasn't worked.
The polls don't lie. They may not show the winner but they sure do show the loser and that loser is Paul Martin. Under his and Team Martins campaign the Liberal Party numbers have dropped and his personal appeal has declined so far that Jack Layton is meeting him on the way up. But Paul true to form will still be singing I Did My Way until the night the fat lady sings.
The choice Canadians face this election is between the right and the left. That leaves out Team Martin. They do not represent the Liberal Party, the traditional centre of Canadian politics. By personalizing it they have polarized the vote.
This Monday the Choice is clear it is a choice one of four PARTIES, The BQ, The Conservatives, The Greens or The NDP. There is no Liberal party in this election, certainly not one fit to govern as a government. There are four parties in this election running for government and opposition and one guy running for PM.
In English Canada if you are in the least progressive, centrist or to the left of centre, socially aware, concerned about fairness and social justice, and opposed to the Conservatives you have only one choice this election that is the NDP.
On Monday night it will not be a Liberal party loss it will be Paul Martin's loss, and he will go quietly into that good night. Because it has never been about government, good governance, or the Liberal Party. It has always been about Paul Martin Prime Minister. We are not voting out a government we are voting out a man so arrogant that he thought this election was all about being PM.
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Friday, January 20, 2006
Voltaire in the Blogoshpere
I may not agree with what you have to say but I will defend your right to say it. We all know that old chestnut from Volataire. Some just quote it. And some of us put it into practice. And then we get credit, blush, for doing so. As I did with my defense of the Blogging Tories which garnered this.
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Slugger Ed
Ed Broadbent, the NDP secret weapon came out today with a pugalistic attack on Paul Martin and the Liberals. It will send them reeling over the weekend as it hits the print media tommorow.
And the slugger gave Martin a sucker punch but good. Glass jawed Martin hit the mat, the Liberal war room was all a buzz.
In this corner we have Big Ed, in the orange and green trunks. In that corner in the bleeding red trunks, Paul Martin. Big Ed comes out swinging.
"I saw Paul Martin during the 1990s after we had surplus after surplus and building up surplus as well, while millions of kids went to bed hungry, while thousands of Canadians were homeless and we were the only G-8 country without a housing program. Doing nothing on the environment. In fact George Bush did more on the environment than Paul Martin...These are not progressive people. The only time they talk about being progressive is in the dying days of an election campaign." Ed Broadbent's last statement as an MP
Damn fine prose. That opening line about I saw Paul Martin, reminds me of Howl.. I saw the best minds of my generation......etc.
Ed has not yet retired. That won't happen till January 23. Something the Liberals had hoped we would all forget.
Fri 20 Jan 2006
Liberal attack on Ed misses mark
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Softwood Solution
So here is the solution to the Softwood lumber dispute, do it the good old fashioned capitalist way with mergers and acquisitions. However do not expect the corporate welfare bums in Canada's and Quebec's forestry industry to give up their whining and dining at the taxpayers expense.
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Canfor pushes into U.S. forests
Takes over rival in softwood spat
Jason Kirby, Financial Post
Published: Friday, January 20, 2006VANCOUVER - At one time Mack Singleton was a thorn in the side of Canadian lumber producers. As former head of the U.S. lobby group that pushed heavily for softwood duties he once compared Canada's economic system with that of North Korea and Cuba.
Now Mr. Singleton and South Carolina-based New South Companies Inc., which he co-owns and runs, is a cornerstone of Vancouver-based Canfor Corp.'s acquisition strategy that will probably see Canada's largest forestry company snap up other U.S. industry players.
On Wednesday, Canfor said it would pay US$205-million for New South in an all-cash transaction, diversifying its business away from British Columbia and giving it access to lumber from a major European producer through a marketing agreement.
"We've committed to growing with our customers and that is what we'll do," said Jim Shepherd, CEO of Canfor. "This is a step for us to do that."
The irony is some Canadian forest companies such as Canfor are flush with cash partly because the ongoing softwood lumber dispute has forced them to become more efficient. That money could be used to consolidate the fragmented mom-and-pop lumber industry south of the border.
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Liberals Refuse To Speak To Union
While making a big deal about Conservative candidates missing forums, the Liberals have refused to answer the Federal Corrections Officers union; Union of Canadian Correctional Officers (UCCO-SACC-CSN) Federal election questionaire. Dumb move that.
And it does have blowback since this is after all Landslide Annie's file.
And there is a certain irony in all this since one of her biggest supporters is Union President Dan MacLennan of AUPE who is a provincial prison guard.
Of course UCCO has been without a contract for five years. So why would the Liberals talk to them now after not having talked to them for all this time.
I guess its ok to embrace Buzz but to offer your own union workers a fair deal, well thats a bit much to ask.
Arrogance and a culture of entitlement. These are Paul Martins Canadian Values.
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And it does have blowback since this is after all Landslide Annie's file.
And there is a certain irony in all this since one of her biggest supporters is Union President Dan MacLennan of AUPE who is a provincial prison guard.
Of course UCCO has been without a contract for five years. So why would the Liberals talk to them now after not having talked to them for all this time.
I guess its ok to embrace Buzz but to offer your own union workers a fair deal, well thats a bit much to ask.
Arrogance and a culture of entitlement. These are Paul Martins Canadian Values.
Also See:
Landslide Anne in Trouble
Laurie Hawn Chicken Hawk
Conservatives Turn Left
Liberals Abandon Redmonton
Redmonton Votes
Redmonton Not In The Bag for the Conservatives
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Abortion Is Privatized Health Care
A year ago when I launched this blog one of the first issues I wrote about was the denial of womens rights to publicly funded abortion services .A Woman’s Right to Choose? Choose What?
Now Paul Martin has challenged Stephen Harper over the issue of abortion and the Not Withstanding Clause, which has nothing to do with the real issues that surround abortion in Canada.
Canada's Martin says rival anti-abortion extremist
Stephen Harper’s Covert Support for Cheryl Gallant
Womens groups along with Dr. Morgentaler are demanding that the Conservative party speak up on their position about a womans right to choose. Considering that the majority of their party members are anti-choice. Do I need to point out that this conflicts with the very essence of Libertarianism, something many of the same Tories claim to be.
"Last call" to guarantee Canadian women's right to choose - ACPD wants specific commitments now from Stephen Harper
Mr. Harper characterizes a woman's right to choose as a polar extreme - Women demand clarity and assurances
Beware! Fundamentalist Conservatives at the Gates! Callwood, Egan, Mallick, Morgentaler and Walker warn against a Conservative majority
Morgentaler warns: 'Don't vote Conservative'
And again I would say they may worry about Harper's party being full of anti-abortion advocates but that is not the issue.
The Liberals have their fair share of anti-abortion advocates as well, many who will probably retain their seats in this election. Liberal and Conservative MPs join together to fight woman’s right to choose
The real issue is that abortion services are privatized in Canada. And there is a certain irony that the Supreme court ruling that created this situation, the one that Paul Martin is now defending, allowed by ommission, the private delivery of abortions, leaving the provinces off the hook for providing this essential medical procendure.
ABORTION IS PRIVATE HEALTH CARE IN CANADA.
Women in Canada have the right to choose to have an abortion what they do not have is the right to this medical service being provided for by the provinces or in public hospitals! So in effect it limits their rights, and their right to choose.
It has to do with the simple fact that in all the provinces in Canada abortion is a privatized medical procedure.
In Edmonton last year all abortion services were abdicated by Captial Health Authority to the Morgentaler clinic. Edmonton Privatizes Abortion Services
Private for profit health care delivery is what Dr. Morgentaler offers. So anyone who claims that there is no private health care in Canada is forgetting this one simple fact, abortion is privatized in Canada. He has in fact offered his clinics as an example of private health care delivering a service the public system can't or won't.
Where the state still offers it in hospitals it is a primitive D&C procedure that is invasive and harmful to women's health. It is barbaric compared to the vacuum procedure perfected by Dr. Morgentaler.
In provinces where no abortion services are offered by the State, women have to go out of province, shades of the Tory election platform, to get abortions but the province only pays a portion of the rate charged them.
The same now occurs in Alberta where medicare will only pay a portion of the fee of the total cost of the medical service provided by the Morgentaler clinic.
This is the real issue around abortion, not some phony debate Martin wants to raise. The real issue is that neither the Tories or the Liberals plan to end the privatized delivery of a healthcare service (abortion) for women in Canada.
Thats what should piss off women and progressives. That abortion is not free and accessible. The privatization of it allows it to be restricted to those who can pay.
That is the real debate we should have over abortion. Over to you Jack.
Also see: Right To Choose
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Now Paul Martin has challenged Stephen Harper over the issue of abortion and the Not Withstanding Clause, which has nothing to do with the real issues that surround abortion in Canada.
Canada's Martin says rival anti-abortion extremist
Stephen Harper’s Covert Support for Cheryl Gallant
Womens groups along with Dr. Morgentaler are demanding that the Conservative party speak up on their position about a womans right to choose. Considering that the majority of their party members are anti-choice. Do I need to point out that this conflicts with the very essence of Libertarianism, something many of the same Tories claim to be.
"Last call" to guarantee Canadian women's right to choose - ACPD wants specific commitments now from Stephen Harper
Mr. Harper characterizes a woman's right to choose as a polar extreme - Women demand clarity and assurances
Beware! Fundamentalist Conservatives at the Gates! Callwood, Egan, Mallick, Morgentaler and Walker warn against a Conservative majority
Morgentaler warns: 'Don't vote Conservative'
And again I would say they may worry about Harper's party being full of anti-abortion advocates but that is not the issue.
The Liberals have their fair share of anti-abortion advocates as well, many who will probably retain their seats in this election. Liberal and Conservative MPs join together to fight woman’s right to choose
The real issue is that abortion services are privatized in Canada. And there is a certain irony that the Supreme court ruling that created this situation, the one that Paul Martin is now defending, allowed by ommission, the private delivery of abortions, leaving the provinces off the hook for providing this essential medical procendure.
ABORTION IS PRIVATE HEALTH CARE IN CANADA.
Women in Canada have the right to choose to have an abortion what they do not have is the right to this medical service being provided for by the provinces or in public hospitals! So in effect it limits their rights, and their right to choose.
It has to do with the simple fact that in all the provinces in Canada abortion is a privatized medical procedure.
In Edmonton last year all abortion services were abdicated by Captial Health Authority to the Morgentaler clinic. Edmonton Privatizes Abortion Services
Private for profit health care delivery is what Dr. Morgentaler offers. So anyone who claims that there is no private health care in Canada is forgetting this one simple fact, abortion is privatized in Canada. He has in fact offered his clinics as an example of private health care delivering a service the public system can't or won't.
Where the state still offers it in hospitals it is a primitive D&C procedure that is invasive and harmful to women's health. It is barbaric compared to the vacuum procedure perfected by Dr. Morgentaler.
In provinces where no abortion services are offered by the State, women have to go out of province, shades of the Tory election platform, to get abortions but the province only pays a portion of the rate charged them.
The same now occurs in Alberta where medicare will only pay a portion of the fee of the total cost of the medical service provided by the Morgentaler clinic.
This is the real issue around abortion, not some phony debate Martin wants to raise. The real issue is that neither the Tories or the Liberals plan to end the privatized delivery of a healthcare service (abortion) for women in Canada.
Morgentaler asks all parties to support abortion rightsAnd women are the majority in Canada,so we could say that the majority of Canadians face discrimination in that a specific medical procedure they need is not available to them in the public health care system!Dr. Morgentaler, who started doing abortions in 1968, made his comments after testifying in a class-action lawsuit aimed at getting Quebec to reimburse women who have had abortions in private clinics or specialized women's centres.
He is part of court cases in Manitoba and New Brunswick that are trying to get compensation for women for abortions in private clinics.
He was particularly harsh in discussing New Brunswick Premier Bernard Lord's stand on the issue, calling his government "reactionary."
Earlier in the day, Dr. Morgentaler told Quebec Superior Court it would be "criminal" for the provincial government to not reimburse women who had abortions in private clinics.
The lawsuit argues the payments are guaranteed under the provincial health insurance law. Procedures done in hospitals are covered.
Nadia Genois of the Women's Health Centre of Montreal said later a victory in the case is vital.
"The cause is very just," she said. "It's important that all women can have access to abortions, free and legally and also with a quality of care."
Thats what should piss off women and progressives. That abortion is not free and accessible. The privatization of it allows it to be restricted to those who can pay.
That is the real debate we should have over abortion. Over to you Jack.
Also see: Right To Choose
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Soccer Dads
That's right its the Canadian version of NASCAR Dad's . This election lets peak in and see what Soccer Dad's are saying. Over at The Voyageurs: Canadian Soccer Supporters There seems to be alot of discussion about Green's and it's not just the field conditions. Defintely not NASCAR dads.
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